log012300

Session Start: Sun Jan 23 20:47:59 2000
*** Now talking in #SpiritualPersistence
*** Topic is ' 2,4~ "Ideas" 2,7Spiritual 2,8Discussion 2,9Tonight 2,11January 23 0,12at 9pm 2,13EST ~ 0,2Hosted by Rev. Dr. Randolph Becker & Elissa Bishop Becker (and Rikkity). URL: www.spiritualpersistence.com '

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RevRandy. . . . .hello
Sharon. . . . .hi randy
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Elissa. . . . .hey sharon!
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Sharon. . . . .hi elissa
RevRandy. . . . .hello TF
Elissa. . . . .((((((TF))))))
Sharon. . . . .hi tf
TF88. . . . .hello randy, elissa and sharon
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Elissa. . . . .hey beka!
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RevRandy. . . . .hello beka and lea
beka. . . . .hi there elissa!
beka. . . . .smile, hi revr
Elissa. . . . .welcome lea and fvdl (gosh that's hard to pronounce)
Lea. . . . .hello
beka. . . . .fvdl wonder how ya say tht
beka. . . . .wndr hwystht
RevRandy. . . . .and hello fvdl
fvdl. . . . .it is an acronym
Elissa. . . . .jihsytr?
fvdl. . . . .hi all
beka. . . . .hello everyone?
* fvdl rings the doorbell...
fvdl. . . . .hehe.
Elissa. . . . .fvdl what's it an acronym for?
beka. . . . .CHUCKLE... my DOGS just ran to the front door!!!!!!!!!! and are BARKING!!!!!!!!
RevRandy. . . . .bad dog, bad dog
fvdl. . . . .Elissa : It is for the first letters of my name.
fvdl. . . . .And it is unique in the whole world, never met another FvdL
Elissa. . . . .i'm not surprised fvdl lol
beka. . . . .dogs have returned, hearing beka's "it's ok... just computer friends...."
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Frank. . . . .maybe it is more easy this way
Elissa. . . . .beka the dogs were barking at us?
RevRandy. . . . .good dogs, good dogs
Elissa. . . . .hi frank
beka. . . . .yes! they heard the DOORBELL!
Elissa. . . . .hahahaha
RevRandy. . . . .now you can be frank with us
Frank. . . . .elissa : That is my first name.
Elissa. . . . .you're elissa? then who am i?
RevRandy. . . . .you are you
beka. . . . .yes, who IS inside you?
RevRandy. . . . .but I am me
Elissa. . . . .no I’M me :)
beka. . . . .hence the beauty of anaphors (pronouns)
RevRandy. . . . .no, i am me (actually later tonight we will meet ME)
beka. . . . .huh? rr? ah...
Elissa. . . . .actually later tonight we will be rikkity :)
beka. . . . .tonight HERE?
Elissa. . . . .yep
Elissa. . . . .right here live and in person
beka. . . . .DO YOU Mean in ptop?
Elissa. . . . .nope
RevRandy. . . . .NOPE - or as she would say, dead and in person
beka. . . . .how can you tell that will happen?
beka. . . . .whoa.... wow. now THAT is candide
Elissa. . . . .she tells me and i obey lol
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beka. . . . .how can ya tell about ricketty?
Elissa. . . . .beka she tells me and i have an exercise i do and she comes through
beka. . . . .thanks E.
RevRandy. . . . .hello deni and common
Deni. . . . .hiya
RevRandy. . . . .So, are we ready to get started????????
beka. . . . .sure thing
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RevRandy. . . . .welcome deezee
deezee. . . . .ty
RevRandy. . . . .and welcome to all
RevRandy. . . . .If you are new with us, we will be offering up a short explanation of what this is all about in just a moment
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RevRandy. . . . .welcome jackie
Jackie. . . . .Hi Rev and everyone
RevRandy. . . . .so let's get started
RevRandy. . . . .we welcome you all
RevRandy. . . . .and especially any who are new to SP
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RevRandy. . . . .and even those who are old SPers like Miss Hanna - welcome
Hanna. . . . .:)
Elissa. . . . .hey ((((((hanna))))))
Elissa. . . . .she's not that old
Hanna. . . . .:P lol
Elissa. . . . .lol
RevRandy. . . . .a little history is in order, I think
Elissa. . . . .want the intro?
Elissa. . . . .ok then!
Elissa. . . . .RevRandy has been a Unitarian Universalist minister for
Elissa. . . . .almost 30 years, with a thriving congregation in
Elissa. . . . .Williamsburg, VA.
Elissa. . . . .I am a writer, medium, and published poet, and
Elissa. . . . .am currently a Masters candidate in Community Counseling
Elissa. . . . .at the College of William and Mary.
Elissa. . . . .My and RevRandy's daughter, Ericka (now known as Rikkity in spirit)
Elissa. . . . .died in an automobile collision with a drunk driver
Elissa. . . . .on August 20, 1995.
Elissa. . . . .She was 20 years old, and going into
Elissa. . . . .her junior year at Yale. 8 days after her death, RevRandy
Elissa. . . . .and I began communicating with her.
Elissa. . . . .Spiritual Persistence is Rikkity's name for that body of
Elissa. . . . .wisdom she has shared with us in the form of Points to
Elissa. . . . .Ponder.
Elissa. . . . .It is a unique vision of the nature of spiritual
Elissa. . . . .and physical existence, of the continuity between life
Elissa. . . . .and death, of connection, and of our place in the universe.
Elissa. . . . .And it is guidance we follow that has helped us to learn,
Elissa. . . . .to heal from grief, and to live better lives. We are here to
Elissa. . . . .share this wisdom with you and to explore what it means
Elissa. . . . .to you personally,
Elissa. . . . .as we learn from one another on this journey.
Elissa. . . . .If you have any further questions, please feel free to
Elissa. . . . .private message (pm) anyone with an "@" in front of their name
Elissa. . . . . or email Randy or me anytime. Thanks
Elissa. . . . .for coming...and again, welcome! Does anyone have any questions before we begin?
RevRandy. . . . .no questions??
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RevRandy. . . . .then let's begin with our invocation
RevRandy. . . . .some simple words
RevRandy. . . . .to start our time together
RevRandy. . . . .May we be connected to all things loving
RevRandy. . . . .protected from all things evil
RevRandy. . . . .and guided in all ways gracious. Blessed Be
* Jackie : ~ Amen ~
Deni-Thumper. . . . .Amen
Hanna. . . . .Blessings to all
Elissa. . . . .amen~
beka. . . . .blessed be
Lea. . . . .Amen
deezee. . . . .amen
JayBee. . . . .Amen
RevRandy. . . . .Tonight we have several things to share for pondering and discussing
RevRandy. . . . .and later, after the 10p (ET) break
RevRandy. . . . .Ms. Rikkity herself has threatened a visit
Elissa. . . . .:)
RevRandy. . . . .by way of some more recent history
RevRandy. . . . .on Friday we had a conversation
RevRandy. . . . .with some on the other side
RevRandy. . . . .and we thought we would share those conversations
RevRandy. . . . .and some questions that seem to arise from them.
RevRandy. . . . .So, here's where we started
RevRandy. . . . .with our friend MCP who has spoken with us many times before:
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RevRandy. . . . . 0,2"It is a big problem-a. I came back from the East with ideas and spices and
RevRandy. . . . . 0,2spaghetti, and what do the people want. Ideas, no; spices, in moderation;
RevRandy. . . . . 0,2spaghetti, you like-a pasta I bring-a you 2 1/2 pounds-a the best pasta you
RevRandy. . . . . 0,2ever tasted. So they went for the physical. But has pasta changed the world,
RevRandy. . . . . 0,2not really; and spices, a leeetle; and ideas, o yes. But ideas have always
RevRandy. . . . . 0,2been the currency of least value; it's like they are the packing tissue
RevRandy. . . . . 0,2around the real stuff. But ideas are the transformative gifts of the
RevRandy. . . . . 0,2universe.
RevRandy. . . . . 0,2
RevRandy. . . . . 0,2"And it is not the separation of economic classes that is the big struggle, but
RevRandy. . . . . 0,2the division of those with the new ideas and those without a clue. Some
RevRandy. . . . . 0,2belong to the future, but most belong to the past. When a system attempted
RevRandy. . . . . 0,2to deal with the class struggle as economic it failed in less than 100
RevRandy. . . . . 0,2years, but the ideas of the Buddha have lasted thousands. And so it is
RevRandy. . . . . 0,2today. If everyone were color blind and all had the same access to resources
RevRandy. . . . . 0,2and we could not hear-a accents-a, then the whole thing would hinge on
RevRandy. . . . . 0,2ideas. Just because we are not that classless yet doesn't mean the same is
RevRandy. . . . . 0,2not true.
RevRandy. . . . . 0,2
RevRandy. . . . . 0,2"And I prefer marinara with a good anchovy twinge. She's back, I go-a."
RevRandy. . . . .so, there is MCP
RevRandy. . . . .with some provocative thoughts
RevRandy. . . . . 0,1???? how do you think people are divided into classes by ideas -
RevRandy. . . . . 0,1and how could that be changed?
RevRandy. . . . .the cyberfloor is open - what do you see in his words?
Jackie. . . . .Maslow's hierarchy of needs, when one level is satisfied, you can go on
beka. . . . .a friend of mine used to say that bigotry is hardening of the categories... i think that applies more broadly to ideas in general...
RevRandy. . . . .are ideas at the pinnacle of the hierarchy, or are they at the base?
beka. . . . .but i didn't mean to interrupt about maslow
Jackie. . . . .self-actualization is at the top, the basic food, survival needs at the bottom
beka. . . . .interesting... well, ideas COME from conscious beings, eh... and if we have the hubris to disting. them from inanimate beings.
RevRandy. . . . .but if we think of ideas as something other than survival needs .....
RevRandy. . . . .yet maybe they are the stuff of survival
beka. . . . .are you doing ideas as independent of humans or from humans
beka. . . . .um spirits
RevRandy. . . . .ideas as conscious understandings of realities of experience
RevRandy. . . . .i think
beka. . . . .or ideas are conscious hypotheses
fvdl. . . . .maybe it means that for the basic needs we are all the same ?
Elissa. . . . .that makes sense fvdl
TF88. . . . .well, isn't it like someone who goes to an exotic vacation place, but chooses to eat in McDonald's?
TF88. . . . .staying with what is comfortable
fvdl. . . . .For all your information (English is not my native language).
beka. . . . .wouldn't have known that fvdl
RevRandy. . . . .o, what is?
Elissa. . . . .you're doing fine fvdl
Elissa. . . . .dutch
RevRandy. . . . .well, for many of us for whom English is our native tongue, by the end of evening our fingers are typongw real fdunwy
Elissa. . . . .let me ask you guys this: can we survive without ideas?
RevRandy. . . . .would we be human without them
beka. . . . .ideas as gifts of the universe....lovely image
RevRandy. . . . .and transformative gifts at that
beka. . . . .yes, transformative IF you let them in. that is if, you allow the possibility of change.
Jackie. . . . .I guess I'm thinking that the working class is into thinking about survival, and that those who are more financially secure, have the time to think of different ideas
RevRandy. . . . .ah - the concept of change arises
Elissa. . . . .if you allow for possibility :)
beka. . . . .yes, interesting, now that you mention it. relevant. and incorporated
RevRandy. . . . .Jackie - I wonder if that is true in practice - that peasants out working don't have deep thoughts
Jackie. . . . .do they get to follow up on them
Jackie. . . . .I'm sure they do, eg. look at all the uprisings
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RevRandy. . . . .why did the great leaders of thought - Buddha, Jesus, Mohammed, for example - surround themselves more with working class and less with noble or wealthy class
gus_magilke. . . . .Rev, Because they were the real people, the "salt of the earth"
Elissa. . . . .jackie i think that may be true about ideas as we usually think of them, but would any of us be here without them? what if no one had thought of the wheel because they were too hungry?
beka. . . . .people are afraid of ideas because ideas CONSTRUCT our understanding of the world, and people are afraid of letting go
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Elissa. . . . .o randy, that's a provocative thought
RevRandy. . . . .construct or de-construct
beka. . . . .reflect, undergird, offer explanation (yikes, kinda like "religion')
Elissa. . . . .beka yes!
Elissa. . . . .(to what you said before)
fvdl. . . . .jackie : i don't agree. A lot of people are interested in 'believing' and in spiritual facts.
Elissa. . . . .what does "real" mean to you gus?
gus_magilke. . . . .Real people feel the day to day trials and tribulations of life; they are not protected as the elite are
Elissa. . . . .ah gus... i think we may be on to something here... real people are not as invested in the power structure or the past, are they
gus_magilke. . . . .I guess I should say hello and no they are not they work for every thing they have nothing is given to them
Elissa. . . . .hello gus, but maybe even more importantly they have a freedom to explore new possibilities because they have less to lose
gus_magilke. . . . .Elissa yes so true
RevRandy. . . . .but I keep hearing MCP query - if we could eliminate differences based on cultural assumptions, and be open to the ideas of all ...
RevRandy. . . . .what would the world be like -- and are our class distinctions a way of not having to deal with the ideas of all
beka. . . . .hmmm so class distinctions aren't about like what kind of job you can get and hence all that ensues?
beka. . . . .we do live in a dominant societal motif -- a framework of interpretation -- POWER, PRESTIGE -- that is so deep we don't even see it.
RevRandy. . . . .in fact, they may be smokescreens to keep us from the real distinctions, those with access to both ideas and their implementation and those without
RevRandy. . . . .one of the challenges we have been given recently by Rikkity is to think about how the universality or lack of it of knowledge (ideas, technology, etc) is the biggest structural form of discrimination
fvdl. . . . .maybe it means that in fact a lot of religions are based on the same principles, but that humans choose to 'create' the differences ?
RevRandy. . . . .good point fvdl
RevRandy. . . . .and differences that have nothing to do with the core concepts
fvdl. . . . .If we don't know it is in fact the same, then we start to create differences ourselves.
||kiwi||. . . . .einstein said..imagination is more important than knowledge..
RevRandy. . . . .right - knowledge is about the past - imagination is about the future
||kiwi||. . . . .the human is such that irrespective of power structure..it will seek to go around it..nature abhors walls..as frost said
RevRandy. . . . .and to them the systems of culture are the systems of oppression at the same time - so why not think outside that box
Elissa. . . . .we do create differences, and another of rikkity's friends spoke to that very thing as you will hear later
RevRandy. . . . .nature also abhors vacuums, unless the rug is very, very, very dirty
||kiwi||. . . . .nature abhors voids..also
||kiwi||. . . . .:)
||kiwi||. . . . .syncronicity.
Jackie. . . . .funny
||kiwi||. . . . .:)
Elissa. . . . .kiwi, we seem to like our walls though, don't we? we certainly build a lot of them
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RevRandy. . . . .well, let me move us on with another of our visitors on Friday
RevRandy. . . . .after MCP spoke, we talked with LD
RevRandy. . . . .and here is what he said to us:
RevRandy. . . . . 0,2"Good morning. My friend MCP has made an excellent point. In my life I was
RevRandy. . . . . 0,2often moved from place to place by politics and religion. I was seen as
RevRandy. . . . . 0,2valuable for what I could make, with their dreams of alchemy in the
RevRandy. . . . . 0,2forefront. But what I had most were ideas, and here's a big thought--so big
RevRandy. . . . . 0,2it will take thousands of years to understand. But, this weekend only, it
RevRandy. . . . . 0,2will be available interest-free for all of 2000:
RevRandy. . . . . 0,2
RevRandy. . . . . 0,2"When the mind focuses on products, then the test of ideas is success. But
RevRandy. . . . . 0,2to have success one must then deny all the failures. But the ideas that lead
RevRandy. . . . . 0,2to immediate success often have more to do with the past. Ideas that
RevRandy. . . . . 0,2challenge the future often fail in the present. So, when we speak about the
RevRandy. . . . . 0,2equality of ideas we mean the equality of success and failure as well; for
RevRandy. . . . . 0,2today's failures may lead to tomorrow's successes. And when we create a
RevRandy. . . . . 0,2society of success but try to limit that success to a perpetuation of what
RevRandy. . . . . 0,2has been, we deny both success and failure. So a new idea comes along,
RevRandy. . . . . 0,2fails, and we laugh at the idea only to rue our laughter later; or it is a
RevRandy. . . . . 0,2success but we honor it only if it enhances the previous collective vision.
RevRandy. . . . . 0,2But the great ideas are those that float without either success or failure
RevRandy. . . . . 0,2because they belong to tomorrow.
RevRandy. . . . . 0,2
RevRandy. . . . . 0,2"But watch, every age is the same: Praise the trivial novelties of the
RevRandy. . . . . 0,2ideas, but prosecute and persecute the big ideas of transformation. And
RevRandy. . . . . 0,2always remember, the status quo wants ideas that appear new but which change
RevRandy. . . . . 0,2nothing. And now I go to think of ideas. Remember, most people view paradise
RevRandy. . . . . 0,2like home. Few dare to even think of something beyond our wildest desires.
RevRandy. . . . . 0,2And now she is bringing a dog my way, a dog with pasta breath."
beka. . . . .seems to be challenging the very idea of "success" and "failure"
beka. . . . .challenges 'success' 'failure' and our authenticity in responding to ideas
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||kiwi||. . . . .yes we love sittin on the dock of the bay..to contemplate..reflect..when we know the
walls well..then its time to move on..
fvdl. . . . .revr : maybe it is about the knowledge and imagination fills each other in, but also restrain each other.
||kiwi||. . . . .walls keep in..they keep out as well
Elissa. . . . .yes kiwi :)
RevRandy. . . . .I too think there is always a two-wayness about much of this
||kiwi||. . . . .we must be like a window..to look in..to look out
fvdl. . . . .revr : you need knowledge in a certain extend to have imagination
RevRandy. . . . .but that same knowledge can keep you from imagining
fvdl. . . . .revr : but your knowledge will restrain you as well.
fvdl. . . . .revr : it was in my textbar (hehe)
Elissa. . . . .can we focus on success and still move toward the future?
beka. . . . .that's interesting E.
Elissa. . . . .what happens when we reject what our failures and mistakes might have taught us?
fvdl. . . . .elissa : then the same will happen again. If you don't learn, you will stumble again (i guess ???)
Elissa. . . . .fvdl i believe that, too, but we can also keep ignoring it :)
fang. . . . .or you have to learn the lesson again a different way
RevRandy. . . . .if we only do what will succeed, isn't that just repeating the past - and not risking the future
TF88. . . . .what is success?
Elissa. . . . .good question, tf
Fbi. . . . .TF...completion of a task
TF88. . . . .I don't know..."completion of a task" sounds pretty lifeless to me
beka. . . . .dontcha think you gotta focus on success some?
beka. . . . .i mean you can learn from failures -- from the wrong choices, or the missteps, that's not rejecting, and yet it's still seeking THE FIT...
||kiwi||. . . . .if we did not savor the success..the reward ..what would be the incentive..
RevRandy. . . . .THE FIT is different from success, it seems to me IMHO
beka. . . . .yes, and hence i was suggesting a different definition of success
beka. . . . .but maybe that's just sleepy sunday thinking
Elissa. . . . .lol beka
RevRandy. . . . .someone ring a doorbell so beka's dog will wake her up
beka. . . . .hey i was trying to be quiet here a bit
beka. . . . .smile
||kiwi||. . . . .:)
RevRandy. . . . .;-)
* beka rings the doorbell...
Elissa. . . . .aaaaarrrrrrrrf
||kiwi||. . . . .heheh
RevRandy. . . . .arrrrrrffffffffffffffffffffffffff
* beka rings the doorbell...
RevRandy. . . . .rrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr
Jackie. . . . .come in
beka. . . . .dogs are now investigating!!!!!!!!
Fbi. . . . .Woa, Avon Calling?...
gus_magilke. . . . .To reject our past failures and mistakes is to court insanity
gus_magilke. . . . .it causes stagnation
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Elissa. . . . .success in our society means what?
RevRandy. . . . .so often, it seems, we do not pay heed to our mistakes, but only to our successes, even if those successes were unintentional
||kiwi||. . . . .yet..we must not be intoxicated..balance..to know the difference..to accept..or to have the courage to go forward..change..a baby step at a time..sometimes..
Frank_fvdl. . . . .gus : When you don't learn from a mistake or an error, the next time you face it, you will make the same mistake ?
gus_magilke. . . . .Frank :true
RevRandy. . . . .so, what is success
Elissa. . . . .no one seems to have a clear idea of what success means
RevRandy. . . . .and is it the opposite of failure?
TF88. . . . .to me, success is doing to the best of your ability...no matter the outcome
RevRandy. . . . .ah - TF - that is putting an new spin on it
||kiwi||. . . . .success has many fathers..failure is often an orphan..
beka. . . . .nice observation kiwi!
Jackie. . . . .knowing what you want out of life and being happy striving toward it
RevRandy. . . . .jackie - so success is being aimed in the right direction, not necessarily arriving somewhere
Elissa. . . . .o jackie! there's the rub, isn't it! if you know what you want then you've already decided, already set limits on possibilities and excluded the new directions your failures could point you towards
RevRandy. . . . .how to not be aimless but also to be open
Jackie. . . . .success is being open to new ideas
gus_magilke. . . . .we don't have to learn from our mistakes but if we don't learn what's the use
Frank_fvdl. . . . .But I guess that there is a difference between learning a spiritual lesson, and a life-lesson.
RevRandy. . . . .what is the difference, frank
Frank_fvdl. . . . .revr : I mean with a life lesson (maybe used the wrong words) like lock your house door or else (etc)
RevRandy. . . . .ah ha - got it frank
gus_magilke. . . . .Frank: every REAL life lesson is a spiritual one
||kiwi||. . . . .better to have loved and lost..then never loved at all..
Jackie. . . . .yes, getting there is half the fun :)
Frank_fvdl. . . . .revr : With a spiritual lesson i mean like 'think about other people', 'don’t kill' etc.
RevRandy. . . . .or behind or beneath every life lesson is the potential for a spiritual one
gus_magilke. . . . .If we are in the right mind frame
RevRandy. . . . .you learn to lock your doors - but underneath is the issue of fear
Frank_fvdl. . . . .revr : not the issue of fear, but the simple fact that things will get stolen. But that is not a spiritual lesson.
RevRandy. . . . .but what does it mean to have things stolen - they are just things
gus_magilke. . . . .I never lock my door
RevRandy. . . . .someone stole my door
Frank_fvdl. . . . .revr : that is what I say. That is not a real lesson.
Frank_fvdl. . . . .revr : hehe
gus_magilke. . . . .What I have is not worth the trouble
||kiwi||. . . . .im sorry to leave this most delightful discussion...u all have a blessed night
RevRandy. . . . .night kiwi
||kiwi||. . . . .^i^/
||kiwi||. . . . .:)
gus_magilke. . . . .nite kiwi
Frank_fvdl. . . . .night kiwi
RevRandy. . . . .I just went back and looked again at some of what LD said -
RevRandy. . . . . 0,2"When the mind focuses on products, then the test of ideas is success. But
RevRandy. . . . . 0,2to have success one must then deny all the failures. But the ideas that lead
RevRandy. . . . . 0,2to immediate success often have more to do with the past. Ideas that
RevRandy. . . . . 0,2challenge the future often fail in the present.
beka. . . . .excuse me guys, must go too, hugs all, beka
RevRandy. . . . .nite beka
Elissa. . . . .nite beka... pet the dogs
RevRandy. . . . .arfffffarf
beka. . . . .smile nite nite
Elissa. . . . .aren't we all taught that we will be successful if we do certain things a certain way, if we follow rules and bring an apple to the teacher?
RevRandy. . . . .focus on products
Frank_fvdl. . . . .It means that people has to invest in the future. There isn't usually direct good result
Jackie. . . . .persistence pays off, don't worry if at first you don't succeed, try try again
Elissa. . . . .right jackie... try the same things again and again so you can do them with no mistakes
RevRandy. . . . .and what appears to be most successful may lead to a dead end
RevRandy. . . . .xerography was known from the 1890s on, but was consider a meaningless idea .... until the late 1950s
RevRandy. . . . .now, many of the spiritual ideas that were derided are being seen as meaningful again
gus_magilke. . . . .In our society we are conditioned to want immediate success
fang. . . . .can i ask a question?
Jackie. . . . .please
RevRandy. . . . .and here's an idea - break time - for those who need a break
RevRandy. . . . .but keep on talking
RevRandy. . . . .fang?
fang. . . . .i know we are suppose to see the god spirit in all
fang. . . . .and i can do it for almost everyone,
fang. . . . .except my roommate
RevRandy. . . . .sometimes the spiritual components of a person just don't combine to make a person who can generate that god-given energy
RevRandy. . . . .but needs to suck it in from others just to stay whole
fang. . . . .he makes me very agitated and angry
fang. . . . .but i'm really trying
RevRandy. . . . .so, what you see is a bad matching of spiritual material, each piece of which has that spark of divinity in it, but which in total seems to lack it
RevRandy. . . . .like the combination of chemical elements that in their own right are beneficial, but when combined become poisonous
TF88. . . . .fang...maybe you need to stop trying and start allowing
Jackie. . . . .get a new roommate
fang. . . . .but i feel taken advantage of
fang. . . . .oh ok
Fbi. . . . .Fang, the people I have most trouble with are the ones who reflect the traits I don't like about myself. It has taken me mega years to recognize that
RevRandy. . . . .(have you tried dolls and pins?)
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RevRandy. . . . .and when you get agitated and angry, you feed your energy into his need for it
gus_magilke. . . . .Fang if your lives are not compatible maybe its time to move on
fang. . . . .i love you revrandy
RevRandy. . . . .ty fang
RevRandy. . . . .(((((remember - this is break time - back with the formal stuff in about 7 minutes)))))
fang. . . . .unfortunately my house
fvdl. . . . .fang : try to find the things in your roommate that you like.
fang. . . . .oh heaven help me then
fvdl. . . . .fang : hehe
RevRandy. . . . .or move your thinking beyond him (or, if necessary, move out/on)
gus_magilke. . . . .fvdl: good thinking build from there
Jackie. . . . .send him packing
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fvdl. . . . .gus : that's the dutch spirit (hehe)
TF88. . . . .the responsibility of our own reactions though lie with us
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RevRandy. . . . .well - it is just about time to reconvene
fvdl. . . . .recovene ?
RevRandy. . . . .come together again
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Elissa-Rikkity. . . . .hey guys, whassup?
RevRandy. . . . .hey Moo
Elissa-Rikkity. . . . .hey dude, duck! hahaha
TF88. . . . .{{{Rikkity}}}
Elissa-Rikkity. . . . .hi tf! you met my friend
TF88. . . . .yes I did!
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Elissa-Rikkity. . . . .ooops the dude didn't duck hahahaha
Elissa-Rikkity. . . . .it's been a while since i've been here, and it's good to be with you again
Elissa-Rikkity. . . . .i want to start by asking you a question
Elissa-Rikkity. . . . .what's the first thing you ask when someone introduces you to a new game?
fang. . . . .what are the rules?
fvdl. . . . .rikkity : the game rules ?
Sharon. . . . .how do you play it?
Elissa-Rikkity. . . . .yes
Elissa-Rikkity. . . . .yes
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Sharon. . . . .wb randy
Elissa-Rikkity. . . . .what are the rules
Elissa-Rikkity. . . . .randy i told you to duck
RevRandy. . . . .did I ever listen to you (ha)
Elissa-Rikkity. . . . .and where do the rules come from?
fang. . . . .whoever made up the game?
Elissa-Rikkity. . . . .come on, you guys know this one
TF88. . . . .other people who decided them
gus_magilke. . . . .game master creates them
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Elissa-Rikkity. . . . .and when did these people make those rules?
RevRandy. . . . .sometime in the past??
Elissa-Rikkity. . . . .dad shhhhhhhhhhhhhh
fang. . . . .in the beginning
gus_magilke. . . . .while creating the game
fvdl. . . . .I guess the rules are our model of how it works ?
Jackie. . . . .baseball
Jackie. . . . .sorry
Elissa-Rikkity. . . . .but dad is correct and jackie is funny...
Elissa-Rikkity. . . . .the rules come from the past.
gus_magilke. . . . .ohhhh Knowledge
Elissa-Rikkity. . . . .they contain nothing new, and are self-sustaining only... ONLY
Elissa-Rikkity. . . . .if we agree to follow them.
Elissa-Rikkity. . . . .we are told we must follow them to win, to succeed, but on whose terms do we do
Elissa-Rikkity. . . . .this winning and succeeding? our own? i theeeenk not!
gus_magilke. . . . .i'm listening
gus_magilke. . . . .or reading
Elissa-Rikkity. . . . .remember that rules are made to keep the status quo the same. adventures have no rules,
Elissa-Rikkity. . . . .and so if you want to live an adventure, if you want your life to be real life
Elissa-Rikkity. . . . .and to contain meaning and learning and possibility, be aware of where the rules are that you follow.
gus_magilke. . . . .ya gotta bend the rules
Elissa-Rikkity. . . . .and rules are not the same as structure.
Elissa-Rikkity. . . . .structure lets us make sense of our experiences, it does not tell us what
Elissa-Rikkity. . . . .our experience will be.
Elissa-Rikkity. . . . .think about the difference between a house and a prison.
Elissa-Rikkity. . . . .a house contains life, it orders it to some extent, but the
Elissa-Rikkity. . . . .way it orders it is our choice (within our budgets of course).
Elissa-Rikkity. . . . .in a prison you have no choice, but you have many many rules.
Elissa-Rikkity. . . . .ever wonder why the prison system doesn't work?
Elissa-Rikkity. . . . .there's your answer... or part of the question.
Elissa-Rikkity. . . . .it contains the past, and leaves no room for the future.
Elissa-Rikkity. . . . .games and their rules are like prisons,
Elissa-Rikkity. . . . .and so often we walk into them willingly because we are
Elissa-Rikkity. . . . .promised great rewards for doing the "right" things in the "right" way.
Elissa-Rikkity. . . . .we all have probably had the experience of hearing an older person
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Elissa-Rikkity. . . . .advise us about how to be successful and knowing deep in our souls
gus_magilke. . . . .no wonder I hate playing games
Elissa-Rikkity. . . . .that their advice would not work for us because our world was
Elissa-Rikkity. . . . .different from theirs. our world had changed, and their rules
Elissa-Rikkity. . . . .would not lead us to the same place they found.
Elissa-Rikkity. . . . .remember bobby fischer.
Elissa-Rikkity. . . . .he walked away from the game and no one understood
Elissa-Rikkity. . . . .how he could do that...
Elissa-Rikkity. . . . .how could he walk away from all that success. now you know.
Elissa-Rikkity. . . . .live as an adventure, live in possibilities, live toward the future and
Elissa-Rikkity. . . . .toward the horizons.
Elissa-Rikkity. . . . .the only structure you need is the ripples of the great ideas
Elissa-Rikkity. . . . .that flow from the mind of All That Is through
Elissa-Rikkity. . . . .the universe and inform all we are and all we will be.
Elissa-Rikkity. . . . .and now i must go and let your discussion proceed.
Elissa-Rikkity. . . . .learn and remember.
Elissa-Rikkity. . . . .goodbye.
TF88. . . . .thank you Rikkity
RevRandy. . . . .thank you Rikkity
fvdl. . . . .thnx rikkity
RevRandy. . . . .watch out for the popcorn
fang. . . . .ty rikkity
RevRandy. . . . .so, any reactions to what she had to say?????
TF88. . . . .yes
fvdl. . . . .I have
Jackie. . . . .Carpe diem, live in the moment, with an eye to the future
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RevRandy. . . . .go ahead
fang. . . . .i'm ready for the computer chip that they can put in my brain
fang. . . . .then i won't forget
TF88. . . . .I greatly appreciated her thought about walking away from the game when you don't care for the rules
TF88. . . . .this was something I personally needed to hear
RevRandy. . . . .or else you play someone else's game
fvdl. . . . .I think that a life-span (f.i. 70 years) which is a human live, is a sort of game for a spirit.
fvdl. . . . .That a spirit will learn from it
fvdl. . . . .And evolve that way. But the spirit is free to choose which live it wants to live
fvdl. . . . .like a computer game, where you can choose which level etc.
TF88. . . . .I do not like the rules in my profession and have somewhat walked away...of late I have been thinking
TF88. . . . .of walking back, but making my own rules
gus_magilke. . . . .If we break the rules it opens us to the divine or the possibility of it
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RevRandy. . . . .if we do not choose to live by our own sense of the rules, why play?
bluelight. . . . .i've already walked away from a game but we can't kid ourselves we still do play into some games.. i think
RevRandy. . . . .o, yes, we get caught - but maybe we learn (and remember)
fvdl. . . . .Life itself is not a game, but for the spirit it looks like a game. Not a game in the meaning of game
fvdl. . . . .but more like that you can choose (as spirit) what live you can do. And what to learn that life
RevRandy. . . . .the difference between structure and rules applies I think -
RevRandy. . . . .in life we look for structures that help us see meaning
gus_magilke. . . . .When we are our most creative we are working without the rules
TF88. . . . .it can take tremendous courage to change the rules, and those who do for big scale things can take a big beating
RevRandy. . . . .a beating .... but not at their own hand!
TF88. . . . .no, at the hands of others
fvdl. . . . .revr : not a beating, just an experience you want to have, to learn more.
fvdl. . . . .revr : like playing a computer game a lot of times to start being more experienced.
gus_magilke. . . . .TF you gotta shake the dust off and keep going
RevRandy. . . . .Glenn Gould, for instance ... played his music, his way -- despite what others said
TF88. . . . .yes randy...exactly
TF88. . . . .(although, not very respectfully of the composer) *wink*
bluelight. . . . .it's easy to play Glenn Gould's way.. is harder to play with feeling .. imho
RevRandy. . . . .I was reading the other day about Beethoven, and his decision to add another movement to a piano sonata .... and all thought it was scandalous .... not by the rules
RevRandy. . . . .and that decision revolutionized compositions in the future
bluelight. . . . .i thot that was Brahms RevRandy
RevRandy. . . . .he too ... each of those we call genius make a leap from the rules to the structures that give them meaning
bluelight. . . . .{---- lol .. back to de books this time with glasses on
fvdl. . . . .revr : someone who can use his imagination without being to much blocked by standard rules.
RevRandy. . . . .I have one other piece from Friday I want to share as well ... and it might go along with this theme
RevRandy. . . . .it is from someone with the initials ME, which can be confusing, in a sense
RevRandy. . . . . 0,2"Hello, mon. No problem, mon. Here's a laid-back thought. When the most
RevRandy. . . . . 0,2mellow ideas are suggested, no one likes them as they are but want them
RevRandy. . . . . 0,2dressed up with differences and obligations and physical realities. Rasti
RevRandy. . . . . 0,2didn't need no ganga, but people wanted a sign of difference. Ain't nothing
RevRandy. . . . . 0,2sacred about a cow.
RevRandy. . . . . 0,2
RevRandy. . . . . 0,2"Wait a minute."
RevRandy. . . . .
RevRandy. . . . . 0,2"Or should I say more sacred about a cow."
RevRandy. . . . . 0,2
RevRandy. . . . . 0,2"Moooooo."
RevRandy. . . . . 0,2
RevRandy. . . . . 0,2"People had to put the idea of sacred somewhere. So this is my test. An idea
RevRandy. . . . . 0,2comes along. I say, "Hi Mr. Idea" and he says, "Hi mon" and I say, "What you
RevRandy. . . . . 0,2thinking, mon" and Idea says this: "Here's my thought" and then I ask, "What
RevRandy. . . . . 0,2do I do with it" and if Idea answers, "Do this or that" I say, "Nice meeting
RevRandy. . . . . 0,2you, bye" but if Idea says to me, "Think me and you will later know if you
RevRandy. . . . . 0,2need to do something" I say, "Idea, we could be friends." And if Idea just
RevRandy. . . . . 0,2says, "Think me" then Idea is me. So I test it all. Ideas don't got no
RevRandy. . . . . 0,2obligation. They are thoughts, not princes. They do not rule me... and I
RevRandy. . . . . 0,2mean ME.
RevRandy. . . . . 0,2
RevRandy. . . . . 0,2"So use that test and be mellow. The greatest compliment of an idea is not,
RevRandy. . . . . 0,2"I'll do that" but, "I'll think about that." Doing doesn't take thought but
RevRandy. . . . . 0,2thinking does; and ideas are thoughts, not deeds. Whoa, mon. That's enough."
Jackie. . . . .are you saying following the rules==sacred cow
RevRandy. . . . .making the cow a sacred thing is making an idea into a rule
RevRandy. . . . .so yes, a sacred cow is a sacred cow, so to speak
RevRandy. . . . .( I should add, to clear things up, that cows are and were Rikkity's favorite animal - hence the comments and the Mooooo)
TF88. . . . .so we participate with the idea
RevRandy. . . . .ideas should be about thinking about them, not having to be obedient to them
fvdl. . . . .It says (I guess) that a thought isn't reality immediate, and thoughts are imaginate (ion).
RevRandy. . . . .yes, fvdl, thoughts should be imaginative .... not restrictive
RevRandy. . . . .if an idea demands a specific action, not just thought, walk away from it
fvdl. . . . .but they are revr, cause most thoughts are based upon human-referral, and that is called knowledge.
RevRandy. . . . .but the transformative ideas are those that stir up thought, not which immediately call for action
RevRandy. . . . .knowledge is about the past --- and carries an obligation with it
gus_magilke. . . . .now that makes sense
RevRandy. . . . .I have sat through too many religious services where someone tries to preach (pitch) an idea, only to then say "and here is what you should think/believe/do about it"
RevRandy. . . . .as if the idea alone could not carry its own weight
fvdl. . . . .knowledge = realized (imagination (based upon knowledge) ); (a lot of mathematics at 4:40 am
gus_magilke. . . . .I'm a little feeble minded I got lost for awhile
RevRandy. . . . .I get lost a lot .... but that's ok .... I find some great things while lost
gus_magilke. . . . .ya right i just found my #$%^&
RevRandy. . . . .and you didn't even know it was lost!?!
gus_magilke. . . . .your rite REV
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TF88. . . . .anytime there's a "should" attached...it's a trigger that I'm not being asked to participate, but being dictated to.
RevRandy. . . . .yes TF
RevRandy. . . . .yet, isn't that what rules are - a lot of shoulds
TF88. . . . .should, ought, must...they're all the same
RevRandy. . . . .yep - the same ilk - all asking us not to think about the idea, just buy in
gus_magilke. . . . .There must be something in me that knew this from a very young age
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TF88. . . . .wb Elissa :) many thanks
Elissa. . . . .thanks tf :) and you're most welcome
Elissa. . . . .trying to catch up!
RevRandy. . . . .she's huffing and puffing, trying to catch up
fvdl. . . . .revr : doesn't she know what rikitty said ?
RevRandy. . . . .not when she is in her "trance" state
Elissa. . . . .i know the general idea but not all the words fvdl
RevRandy. . . . .I think a lot of us here are inherently ornery
bluelight. . . . .LOL RR
RevRandy. . . . .some previous life (lives) must have taught us these lessons
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Tonya. . . . .Hello
fvdl. . . . .revr : i am sure about that.
RevRandy. . . . .hi Tonya and Grace
fvdl. . . . .hi
Grace. . . . .Hi
RevRandy. . . . .and so while some are reaching for the rules, others of us are reaching beyond the rules
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gus_magilke. . . . .my line of work is very creative and I love it
bluelight. . . . .maybe this is why we feel 'different' all our lifes
Jackie. . . . .different--in that we have learned something from past lives?
Tonya. . . . .I have a question:-)
RevRandy. . . . .yes tonya
bluelight. . . . .RevRandy.. maybe it was necessary for us to b born into structure and rules for us to realize all this?
Tonya. . . . .Why would a soul "Choose" to suffer horribly in this life?
RevRandy. . . . .I do not think it is a matter of choice .... but rather the circumstances that arise and what we can learn from them
Tonya. . . . .I have read that some choose the suffering to learn from it but I like your answer better:-)
Elissa. . . . .tonya :)
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RevRandy. . . . .for instance .... many may be born into poverty .... and some learn a lesson of victim-hood from it; others empowerment. And if one of the lessons that one needed was empowerment,...
RevRandy. . . . .then one got that ... but could have gotten it from being born in other status also
Tonya. . . . .I see, Thank you
RevRandy. . . . .I cannot believe that suffering is a necessary component to our spiritual fulfillment, although it may be a path we have to travel
RevRandy. . . . .just by circumstances
Tonya. . . . .I watched my husband suffer awfully & die.....
RevRandy. . . . .((((Tonya))))))))
Tonya. . . . .Thank you.......
Tonya. . . . .I prayed for him to go......
gus_magilke. . . . .sorry Tonya
gus_magilke. . . . .it must have been painful
Tonya. . . . .very, but in the end he went peacefully....
RevRandy. . . . .how did your husband deal with it, Tonya
Tonya. . . . .Nobly:-)
Tonya. . . . .He had his bad days but for the most part he was always upbeat for lack of a better word
Grace. . . . .is it "wrong" to wish not to suffer anymore??
RevRandy. . . . .I believe it is never right to wish to suffer, or to accept suffering
TF88. . . . .I think a part of learning is learning how to not suffer in an insufferable situation
RevRandy. . . . .amen TF
Grace. . . . .:) there's that catch 22 again...it follows me were ever i go and start asking questions...thanks TF
TF88. . . . .:) Grace
Elissa. . . . .grace of course it isn't wrong... the challenge is to learn from any experience
bluelight. . . . .but we can sometimes 'tune out
bluelight. . . . .suffering can't we?
Elissa. . . . .when we tune out suffering we run the risk of tuning out that which is joyful as well
bluelight. . . . .Elissa .. in prayer i tuned out pain but i was in joy then
bluelight. . . . .i didnt' know this was possible but it happened i believe to show me that it is
Elissa. . . . .as long as you don't try to avoid it, blue... seeking a space of peace is not the same as avoiding it
bluelight. . . . .Elissa i don't c the difference . maybe u can explain ..
Elissa. . . . .avoiding pain means blocking it out, trying to pretend it doesn't exist... seeking peace within the pain is acknowledging it and finding a way to deal with it, blue
bluelight. . . . .E.. i was talking about physical pain .. r u?
gus_magilke. . . . .Elissa that was well put
Elissa. . . . .thank you gus
bluelight. . . . .i can c that very much for other kinds of pain
Grace. . . . .mental anguish too bluelight, you can avoid it or pretend it doesn’t exist....
Elissa. . . . .physical pain is harder to avoid... but many people find a way through drugs, alcohol, etc.
bluelight. . . . .yes i can c that .. i was talking about physical pain
RevRandy. . . . .Blue - I have seen people with intense physical pain who had tried to avoid it (medication) but whose only relief came by a conscious refocusing of their energy/being
bluelight. . . . .yes .. but the body/mind has a way of dealing with pain without drugs and more effectively
bluelight. . . . .refocus .. prayer.. whatever ..
RevRandy. . . . .yep - blue - intense prayer is just such a refocus
RevRandy. . . . .saying that I will not let my life be centered on the pain, but rather on something/someone that I see as the source of light and joy
zee. . . . .rev ?
RevRandy. . . . .yes zee
zee. . . . .can it look like they are suffering and they are not ?
RevRandy. . . . .I would never suppose to know what another is feeling in the absence of their expressing it
gus_magilke. . . . .Amen REV
RevRandy. . . . .so, what we might find intolerable is not so bad for someone else
bluelight. . . . .i agree zee.. sometimes the person who is ill can take it better than those watching .. sometimes
RevRandy. . . . .suffering can be a state of mind more than a physical state --- like the study Victor Frankl did of concentration camp residents
RevRandy. . . . .the same situation but many, diverse reactions to it
RevRandy. . . . .stilling the pain is different than ignoring the pain or avoiding the pain
Tonya. . . . .There ARE things worse than death....
Elissa. . . . .definitely true tonya
RevRandy. . . . .there are many things worse than death, especially when one has a sense of spiritual persistence
Grace. . . . .true tonya and death seems kind in comparison
gus_magilke. . . . .There must be breaks in the pain or insanity would ensue
RevRandy. . . . .but the breaks may be in the perception of the pain, not in the pain
gus_magilke. . . . .God will never give us more than we can handle : with his help
TF88. . . . .yes tonya...i like to think of it as "we all get out of here alive"
Tonya. . . . .LOL TF
TF88. . . . .:)
Grace. . . . .hehe..smirk....just without our skin attached...(For TF's comment above) (smile)
Elissa. . . . .lol grace
Elissa. . . . .buncha comedians here... i love it :)
RevRandy. . . . .hey - if you can't laugh at life, what's the point
Tonya. . . . .Court jesters in a former life:-)
RevRandy. . . . .I was a village idiot - I know this for a fact -
Tonya. . . . .LOL
TF88. . . . .ROFL randy
Elissa. . . . .that's true lolol
RevRandy. . . . .Rikkity told me all about it
Tonya. . . . .I'm new, What do you mean by "Spiritual Persistence"?
RevRandy. . . . .a sense of a continuity of our spiritual existence
RevRandy. . . . .that we have arisen from less complex spiritual matter that persists in us; that we, in our turn , and at our own fulfillment, will join with other spiritual matter to create more complex spiritual beings in which we will persist. Nothing lost in the spiritual universe - spiritual persistence
Tonya. . . . .Gosh, I'm glad I found this place....does my soul good:-)
RevRandy. . . . .glad you are here too - we are here every Sunday eve
gus_magilke. . . . .I'm glad you are here too
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gus_magilke. . . . .Tonya
Elissa. . . . .tonya we're glad you're here :)
Grace. . . . .funny you are talking about past lives...I just now finished reading Weiss first book which is why i was late getting here tonight...ah love coincidences
Tonya. . . . .Does Rikkity do past life readings?
Elissa. . . . .she has for us tonya... we know quite a bit about our past lives
RevRandy. . . . .(sometimes too much ;)
Tonya. . . . .neat.....I want to do that some day
fvdl. . . . .elissa : you can ask your own spirit about your own past lifes as well.
Elissa. . . . .o yes fvdl, and i have done that too
Elissa. . . . .tf knows brian weiss
RevRandy. . . . .and therefore it must follow that Brian Weiss knows TF
Elissa. . . . .we also know about a future life
TF88. . . . .LOL randy...that is true
Tonya. . . . .I am just beginning in meditation etc. need to find a group
zee. . . . .are you talking about MANY MINDS MANY MASTERS
TF88. . . . .Many Lives, Many Masters
*** Happy (ADCjava@***.carlnet.org) has joined #SpiritualPersistence
Grace. . . . .the one about Catherine
TF88. . . . .yes, that's Many Lives, Many Masters...about Catherine
*** suwan (stiara@***.tznet.com) has joined #SpiritualPersistence
RevRandy. . . . .Well, folks, once again my great-grandparents' 110 year old clock has struck the hour, and we come to the end of an SP session
suwan. . . . .:)
Elissa. . . . .(((((((suwan)))))))) wait... i'm not hugging you, you're late
bluelight. . . . .:( RR
Jackie. . . . .hi suwan
suwan. . . . .but at least I'm here!
TF88. . . . .hi suwan!
Elissa. . . . .you are :)
TF88. . . . .{{{{Suwan}}}} I'm hugging her :P
gus_magilke. . . . .hi suwan
Elissa. . . . .but you still get 2 demerits
Tonya. . . . .I will be here next Sunday.....
RevRandy. . . . .you can keep talking - but I've been up since 6 something this morning ....
suwan. . . . .thanks tickle!
Elissa. . . . .lol tf
bluelight. . . . .that's ok suwan she doesn't mean it
bluelight. . . . .lolol
RevRandy. . . . .y'all come back, y'hear!
Tonya. . . . .See you all later.
Elissa. . . . .ok, rainbow song time...
TF88. . . . .thanks randy
Jackie. . . . .nite rev
Tonya. . . . .Thank you Rev
RevRandy. . . . .nite all -
bluelight. . . . .ok RR we let u go :D bye bye
gus_magilke. . . . .nite REV
Elissa. . . . .thank you all for being here. it's been a great evening!
RevRandy. . . . .bye
RevRandy. . . . .tata
suwan. . . . .night rev!
[SOUND]
* Playing txplay20.mrc to #SpiritualPersistence with 50ms delay
Elissa. . . . . 1,8!Elissa rainbow.mid 8,1 :o)
bluelight. . . . .::::waving::::
TF88. . . . .night everyone...light and love
RevRandy. . . . .and wait for the closing music
RevRandy. . . . .ahhhhhh
suwan. . . . .night TF
bluelight. . . . .dum de dum dum
suwan. . . . .sheesh got here just in time to say goodnight!
RevRandy. . . . .and get two demerits
Elissa. . . . .well surely it was worth that suwan :P
* Jackie : Goodnight everyone!
RevRandy. . . . .nite Jackie
suwan. . . . .well except for the demerits
Elissa. . . . .nite jackie
Elissa. . . . .suwan get here early next week and i'll deduct them
RevRandy. . . . .nite all
zee. . . . .goodnite all