log032600

Session Start: Sun Mar 26 20:54:11 2000
*** Now talking in #SpiritualPersistence
*** Topic is ' 2,4~ Tonight's 2,7Topic: 2,8"Guilt" 2,9Sunday 2,11March 26 0,12at 9pm 2,13EST ~ 0,2Hosted by Rev. Dr. Randolph Becker & Elissa Bishop Becker (and Rikkity). URL: www.spiritualpersistence.com '

Elissa. . . . .we'll lay a guilt trip on anyone who doesn't show up LOL
Sharon. . . . .he he he he he elissa!!
JudithG. . . . .that's WHY I showed up! LOL
RevRandy. . . . .not us .... we are forgiving people .... we are for giving people a hard time
JudithG. . . . .figured, the 'least' I could do, given the ADC 'server' crashed & messed everything up! LOL
Hanna. . . . .'lissa.. I figured after all the guilt stuff that's been 'coincidentally' showing up with me for the last week.. if I didn't show up, something bad would be bound to happen.. lol
RevRandy. . . . .no guilt trips here
Hanna. . . . .hahah.. nah, it's just been a repeated strain on not only our mb.. but in an email list I'm on as well...
Sharon. . . . .ha ha ha ha ha ha ha
Elissa. . . . .right hanna lol... coincidence???????
Hanna. . . . .haha.. no kidding 'lissa
RevRandy. . . . .guilt seems to be the topic of choice
Elissa. . . . .and it's "guilt" not "gilt"... or "glitz"... that's for the oscars lol
JudithG. . . . .lol, E
* JudithG suggests GUILT is a LUXURY we can't afford!
RevRandy. . . . .Well, I think it is time to start - yes?
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RevRandy. . . . .we are about to start
RevRandy. . . . .on our weekly journey
RevRandy. . . . .into thoughts within sparked by thought from beyond
RevRandy. . . . .I think everyone here knows the story - no newcomers are there?
RevRandy. . . . .so, let begin with our invocation.
RevRandy. . . . .May we be connected to all things loving
RevRandy. . . . .Protected from all things evil
RevRandy. . . . .And guided in all ways gracious. Amen
Elissa. . . . .amen~
suwan. . . . .amen
Deb. . . . .Amen
Sharon. . . . .amen
Hanna. . . . .Amen
RevRandy. . . . .this past week we had two conversations with Rikkity
RevRandy. . . . .about guilt
RevRandy. . . . .and she opened it this way:
RevRandy. . . . .0,2"A great struggle occurs in the midst of grief between probable realities,
RevRandy. . . . . 0,2and the human course of emotions calls us to focus on the road not taken.
RevRandy. . . . . 0,2So much of the grief is about what might have been but is not.
RevRandy. . . . . 0,2And the problem is that we know this,
RevRandy. . . . . 0,2but compound our perceptions of guilt about our roles in the loss with our knowledge of our focus on unreality.
RevRandy. . . . . 0,2So, when one in grief speaks about feeling guilty and talks about what they should have done, two tapes are playing:
RevRandy. . . . . 0,2One about 'should haves' and one about 'now' when they are focusing on trying to deny the loss
RevRandy. . . . . 0,2and not on trying to live with the reality.
RevRandy. . . . . 0,2The only escape from this is reality.
RevRandy. . . . . 0,2And, unless we are talking about murderers, then no one caused it who needs to blame self.
RevRandy. . . . . 0,2So 'what if' is a way to avoid the reality of loss.
RevRandy. . . . . 0,2And accepting the reality of loss is the only way to have a continuation of the relationship.
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RevRandy. . . . .what do you see in this that speaks to you
JudithG. . . . .great points, Randy
JudithG. . . . .I have something to say
RevRandy. . . . .sure
RevRandy. . . . .go ahead
Sharon. . . . .I also have a comment.
JudithG. . . . .I perceive guilt as merely a 'marker' to direct me to what is REALLY going on....a sense of inadequacy or failure....which
JudithG. . . . .is a luxury I can't afford to 'stay' in
JudithG. . . . .therefore, I try to get to the 'root' of my guilt as fast as possible, since
JudithG. . . . .'guilt' can be a hide-out for us, to do nothing in the meantime
Elissa. . . . .how do you get to that root, judy?
JudithG. . . . .I 'usually' find I am 'guilty' of neglect or mis-judgment.....which I then need to acknowledge and explore, then make 'amends' as quickly as possible....first to me, then to whomever I offended
* JudithG has now shared on GUILT {as per me!}
Elissa. . . . .then you assume you could have done it differently or better
JudithG. . . . .no
JudithG. . . . .I 'assume' I can LEARN from my guilt, since it is a marker.......'sin' in Sanskrit means 'missing the mark'
Hanna. . . . .Hmmmm Judy.. my question is.. why the guilt? Why not just an 'awareness' of your choices.. and then your choice to change how you relate to someone or change what you need to do.
JudithG. . . . .well, my 'humanity' often signals me with the 'guilt' button! {wink}
JudithG. . . . .that is my 'cue'
JudithG. . . . .to get busy with ME
JudithG. . . . .then making amends
JudithG. . . . .the 'change' in me comes later, with the awareness of my lack of awareness
JudithG. . . . .this can be done in an INSTANT......no matter re 'time'
RevRandy. . . . .But what about when the amends are hard to make?
JudithG. . . . .life is HARD
Elissa. . . . .i see that as related to control issues... i know for me that's what i attempt to deal with if i'm aware enough of what's going on. guilt can make it hard to forgive ourselves.
Hanna. . . . .Exactly.. I guess I just feel that guilt is a waste of energy.. that it's the awareness of our choices that is more productive.
JudithG. . . . .that does not obfuscate us from attempting our 'amends' in a manner that suits the receiver
JudithG. . . . .righto, Hanna...that is why I 'quickly' move to 'why' my guilt?
* JudithG merely suggested the 'brief' encounter with GUILT is but a
JudithG. . . . .'marker
RevRandy. . . . .I have the feeling, however, that we are speaking from the place of people who have the energy to feel the guilt and to ask why
RevRandy. . . . .and I meet many who are not there yet
Hanna. . . . .I understand Judy.. and I think we all have it.. I just don't happen to like it.. lol
* JudithG suggests guilt is merely a marker of our humanity, where we need to consider correction of 'course'
JudithG. . . . .Guilt = Marker of where I need to LOOK
Sharon. . . . .Blame and guilt are things we have been told to feel about ourselves, by someone who can't take responsibility for their own actions. When we see the guilt for what it is, we are able to then give it back to the person who made us feel that way in the first place...
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Elissa. . . . .i like the first part of what you said sharon... how would we 'give it back'?
Sharon. . . . .so we are no longer affected by it
Elissa. . . . .ok i agree with that
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Sharon. . . . .in doing so, we take our personal power back
Sharon. . . . .and regain our control
RevRandy. . . . .Is all guilt laid upon us? Are we playing out others' tapes? Or do we do it to ourselves?
Hanna. . . . .I feel it's a learned response Rev
JudithG. . . . .nah! We lay it on ourselves, from previous 'tapes' {beliefs}
RevRandy. . . . .I am not so sure it is all from outside (learned, previous, etc)
JudithG. . . . .however, we get MANY 'invitations' to guilt
RevRandy. . . . .but that is part of the second hour tonight (film at 11, so to speak)
JudithG. . . . .LOL
Elissa. . . . .one thing Rikkity said we do when we feel guilt is focus on the "road not taken"... any thoughts about that?
JudithG. . . . .yes, Elissa......guilt often begets 'regret' of what 'might
JudithG. . . . .have been...but this 'type' of guilt is valuable
RevRandy. . . . . 0,2"A great struggle occurs in the midst of grief between probable realities,
RevRandy. . . . . 0,2and the human course of emotions calls us to focus on the road not taken.
RevRandy. . . . . 0,2So much of the grief is about what might have been but is not.
Sharon. . . . .guilt and blame is something we have been told to feel about ourselves
JudithG. . . . .indeed, Sharon......but guilt tells us something about 'ourselves' that is YET unhealed
Elissa. . . . .sharon, so you think we wouldn't feel guilt if we hadn't been taught to?
Sharon. . . . .I got to go lay back down
JudithG. . . . .yes, Eliz. Kubler-Ross teaches that we must 'grieve' that which we have often lost, which is what 'might have been'
RevRandy. . . . .if Erikson is right, we not only need to be free from that which taught us shame, but we also need positive images of self worth
Elissa. . . . .((((((sharon)))))) feel better
RevRandy. . . . .rest sharon - be well
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RevRandy. . . . .let's see where Rikkity goes with this
RevRandy. . . . . 0,2"I give you a less tragic version:
RevRandy. . . . . 0,2Son about to be married to someone who is not parents' first choice.
RevRandy. . . . . 0,2At reception parents have choice to dwell on what might have been and thus lose relationship with son as he is.
RevRandy. . . . . 0,2Or they can relate to son as he is--even with the reservations and sense of loss and pain.
RevRandy. . . . . 0,2So, too, with death.
RevRandy. . . . . 0,2When a person dies--or a duck, for that matter--
RevRandy. . . . . 0,2we can either grieve and relate to their presence in our lives as real dead people, or ducks as appropriate to the species;
RevRandy. . . . . 0,2or we can deny the reality and avoid the loss and continue to put them in their own past, and that would not be good.
RevRandy. . . . . 0,2If the question is 'what if,' that's about the past.
RevRandy. . . . . 0,2If the question is 'now what,' that is about the present...
RevRandy. . . . . 0,2and remember, you get a future worth having only by being present and looking forward.
RevRandy. . . . .I find this an interesting juxtaposition - what if and what now
RevRandy. . . . .one is about denial
RevRandy. . . . .and the other about acceptance
RevRandy. . . . .one of loss
RevRandy. . . . .the other of hope
RevRandy. . . . .one can lead to guilt
RevRandy. . . . .and the other to growth
RevRandy. . . . .does this speak to you?
JudithG. . . . .yes
b. . . . .oh yes
Hanna. . . . .I understand it, yes
JudithG. . . . .thank you, Rikkity
b. . . . .who is rikkity?
RevRandy. . . . .ah, the big question
RevRandy. . . . .Rikkity is the spirit name of Elissa's and my daughter who communicates with us
b. . . . .Oh. Thank you *S*
RevRandy. . . . .any of you want to say more?
JudithG. . . . .well, I understand that life 'experience' can provoke guilt or the 'choice' of learning from what we might consider momentary mistakes.......
JudithG. . . . .I like Rikkity's perspective better....skip the guilt and go to the 'lesson' directly
JudithG. . . . .and then directly to the 'now what?' perspective......
RevRandy. . . . .I also see the use of the two phrases to help people see where they are - are you into "what ifs" or "what nows"
Elissa. . . . .there's that theme of acceptance and forgiveness again that we talked about last week
b. . . . .experience teaches "what now"
RevRandy. . . . .but it is not always easy to be accepting of where one is
JudithG. . . . .this is a much more 'efficient' way to conduct our lives, since 'guilt' is so wasteful and a luxury that 'stalls' our progress
Jackie. . . . .that can be difficult to do sometimes, even if it is forgiving ourselves
Elissa. . . . .the problem comes, i think, when you can't see a "now what" because you're holding onto the past
RevRandy. . . . .but so much of our cultural heritage tells us to look backwards, to old rules and laws and understandings, to the "fundamentals", to scriptures
Elissa. . . . .true randy
* JudithG suggest with MORE 'practice' as we re-train our mind's response, it becomes easier/faster
RevRandy. . . . .we act as if the past determines the future more than the present
RevRandy. . . . .and as if all the understandings have already been given
RevRandy. . . . .but someone else's answers don't answer my questions
suwan. . . . .what does that mean rev?
suwan. . . . ."all the understandings"?
Elissa. . . . .so many in grief can't see a future... the future they see looks like a big void
faith. . . . .Yes
RevRandy. . . . .there are some who think we need no more, no new insights - we have been given all we need
Jackie. . . . .interesting concept
suwan. . . . .well Elissa I think that the future looks worthless to many
suwan. . . . .not that it isn't there, it's without value
RevRandy. . . . .some would say we need to go back to Eden, while others (me included) think we need to work toward a vision of what is yet to be
Jackie. . . . .anything is possible
RevRandy. . . . .everything is possible
Elissa. . . . .and what i've found in grief counseling is that people can be helped to understand that an ongoing relationship with their loved one is possible... and then they can let go because they see a future and can start to say "now what"
RevRandy. . . . .but going backwards invalidates anything we have learned and remembered along the way
Elissa. . . . .haha we've got 2 different themes going here randy :)
JudithG. . . . .lol
JudithG. . . . .we are multi-lingual........
Elissa. . . . .multi-themal?
RevRandy. . . . .I think they are the same one - people in grief cannot see a future, and so think the answer must be in the past
RevRandy. . . . .by seeing even a little glimpse of a future they can move on
JudithG. . . . .gotcha, Rev......great point!
Elissa. . . . .very related for sure
suwan. . . . .hmmmmm
JudithG. . . . .we go to the 'past' as soon as we 'stick' ourselves in guilt
JudithG. . . . .in that, we 'wish' for a 'different' outcome
RevRandy. . . . .yep - guilt is a glue to the past
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JudithG. . . . .however, since the outcome IS 'the' outcome, we can change our perception of that outcome and move forward, helping that outcome to 'heal' both within and outside of ourselves
faith. . . . .I've had to learn to love my son in a much more pure and intimate way since his death
Elissa. . . . .o faith, we so often learn things about our loved ones we never understood when they were living, don't we
JudithG. . . . .and we learn 'things' about ourselves too
faith. . . . .I guess for me it's been a lesson of learning about myself
RevRandy. . . . .learning is always a two way street
RevRandy. . . . .we learn about another and find ourselves in the bargain
faith. . . . .Our roles are reversed now, I pray and ask him for help. He knows so much more than I
suwan. . . . .well what does wishing for a different outcome have to do with guilt or grief?
RevRandy. . . . .but as you were saying Elissa, when you give people the possibility of meaning in the present with their loved ones, they can then have a future too
Elissa. . . . .yes randy... when they can feel that they carry the relationship with them always they can let go of holding on so tightly... then we understand that we can meet our loved ones in a future where both have grown and changed--not just the one who has died
* JudithG suggests we don't make 'guilt' BAD, as much as we quickly learn from it, as to move to 'what's next'
Elissa. . . . .yup
suwan. . . . .I just don't buy it Elissa
suwan. . . . .sorry
JudithG. . . . .{{{{suwan}}}}}}} understandable
RevRandy. . . . .what don't you buy?
Elissa. . . . .it does work though, suwan... i've experienced it myself and seen it work for others... what don't you buy
suwan. . . . .that that works, frankly that any type of grief counseling at all works
zim. . . . .learning is one thing but knowledge must be shared otherwise you're back at square one
Jackie. . . . .I think it gives one perspective, and also a supportive listener
faith. . . . .experience is knowledge, everything else is just information. I know about death and grief now because I've experienced it first hand
JudithG. . . . .understandable, suwan....it is all up to 'willingness' in the client...that is very individual
Jackie. . . . .sometimes people just need to talk to put things into perspective--need a sounding board
faith. . . . .How long has it been if you don't mind me asking
suwan. . . . .I've lost six people close to me in the last ten years
JudithG. . . . .I am SO sorry, suwan...this must be VERY difficult
faith. . . . .Oh dear, how painful
suwan. . . . .mother in law father in law close friend father husband close friend mother
JudithG. . . . .wow, suwan....I can't imagine so many losses
RevRandy. . . . .and just as a healing could start, another loss, it sounds like
Jackie. . . . .((((((((((suwan)))))))))))))))
suwan. . . . .no rev, that's what I'm saying, there isn't any healing
JudithG. . . . .indeed, RevRandy....one 'hit' after another
Elissa. . . . .it makes the process very complicated... you can't grieve for all those losses at the same time
RevRandy. . . . .no, because healing can take time and energy, and you have not had either
JudithG. . . . .suwan, I suggest perhaps you put 'yourself' on a healing prayer list or several?
JudithG. . . . .perhaps to 'ease' this burden...lighten your heart
RevRandy. . . . .Amen
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suwan. . . . .No I'm not making myself clear, it is what it is
b. . . . .can we just except being sad for a moment without worrying too much about healing? Or is this not a good thing
suwan. . . . .I'm not looking for prayers or support, but I also am not looking for any healing
RevRandy. . . . .not looking for or not believing in any healing
Elissa. . . . .suwan, have you come to a place of acceptance with the reality of all those losses?
suwan. . . . .yep they are totally real, lol
JudithG. . . . .understandable, suwan...we must take OUR 'time' with healing.....in our OWN time.....NO 'shoulds'
Elissa. . . . .well that's the beginning of healing
faith. . . . .Can we be of any help to you in any way?
WhiteTiger. . . . .may I backtrack a bit and ask just what flavor of guilt is the topic of discussion?
RevRandy. . . . .chocolate
Elissa. . . . .lol whitetiger
JudithG. . . . .LOL......great question, whitetiger
Elissa. . . . .randy, wanna run the ptop again?
RevRandy. . . . .all of it .....
RevRandy. . . . .or shall I summarize?
JudithG. . . . .re-run, please
Elissa. . . . .whatever... as long as it's chocolate
WhiteTiger. . . . .the readers digest version would be sufficient for me :)
RevRandy. . . . .okey- dokey - una momento, per favore
RevRandy. . . . . 0,2"A great struggle occurs in the midst of grief between probable realities,
RevRandy. . . . . 0,2and the human course of emotions calls us to focus on the road not taken.
RevRandy. . . . . 0,2So much of the grief is about what might have been but is not.
RevRandy. . . . . 0,2And the problem is that we know this,
RevRandy. . . . . 0,2but compound our perceptions of guilt about our roles in the loss with our knowledge of our focus on unreality.
RevRandy. . . . . 0,2So, when one in grief speaks about feeling guilty and talks about what they should have done, two tapes are playing:
RevRandy. . . . . 0,2One about 'should haves' and one about 'now' when they are focusing on trying to deny the loss
RevRandy. . . . . 0,2and not on trying to live with the reality.
RevRandy. . . . . 0,2The only escape from this is reality.
RevRandy. . . . . 0,2And, unless we are talking about murderers, then no one caused it who needs to blame self.
RevRandy. . . . . 0,2So 'what if' is a way to avoid the reality of loss.
RevRandy. . . . . 0,2And accepting the reality of loss is the only way to have a continuation of the relationship.
RevRandy. . . . . 0,2"I give you a less tragic version:
RevRandy. . . . . 0,2Son about to be married to someone who is not parents' first choice.
RevRandy. . . . . 0,2At reception parents have choice to dwell on what might have been and thus lose relationship with son as he is.
RevRandy. . . . . 0,2Or they can relate to son as he is--even with the reservations and sense of loss and pain.
RevRandy. . . . . 0,2So, too, with death.
RevRandy. . . . . 0,2When a person dies--or a duck, for that matter--
RevRandy. . . . . 0,2we can either grieve and relate to their presence in our lives as real dead people, or ducks as appropriate to the species;
RevRandy. . . . . 0,2or we can deny the reality and avoid the loss and continue to put them in their own past, and that would not be good.
RevRandy. . . . . 0,2If the question is 'what if,' that's about the past.
RevRandy. . . . . 0,2If the question is 'now what,' that is about the present...
RevRandy. . . . . 0,2and remember, you get a future worth having only by being present and looking forward.
RevRandy. . . . .* - so far
WhiteTiger. . . . .thx RR
JudithG. . . . .Randy & Elissa? How might Rikkity 'suggest' we move forward 'with' grief, 'despite' our multiple grief?
Elissa. . . . .oooooo JG you like to ask big questions! lol
RevRandy. . . . .well - maybe we should press on and see what more she has to say
RevRandy. . . . . 0,2"Another example: Couple suffers miscarriage.
RevRandy. . . . . 0,2If they focus on that loss,
RevRandy. . . . . 0,2they will not find the gift of the child waiting to be added to their lives through birth or adoption.
RevRandy. . . . . 0,2And people know this but cannot act on it, so they feel guilty about dwelling there.
RevRandy. . . . . 0,2But they see it as guilt about what might have been when, in fact, it is about what might be.
RevRandy. . . . . 0,2Ok. So that's the story... of a man named Brady.
RevRandy. . . . . 0,2"In grief we often mistake the elements and assume it is all about the loss,
RevRandy. . . . . 0,2but much of it is also about our reaction to the loss; and our reactions we can control, but our losses we cannot.
RevRandy. . . . . 0,2We mistake them because, at this spiritual level, we are still sorting out physical versus spiritual realities.
RevRandy. . . . . 0,2In the human sphere we live on the line between knowledge of this and ignorance.
RevRandy. . . . . 0,2And in that land of comprehending and not, we cannot differentiate often.
RevRandy. . . . . 0,2We are hard wired with emotions and physical realities connected more than spiritual ones.
RevRandy. . . . . 0,2"And now a quiz. How many quarts in a peck. None, only a duck. I gotta go." (3/22/2000)
JudithG. . . . .thank you, Rikkity!
WhiteTiger. . . . .seems to me, grief is pity for self, and a perceived "loss"... to me the answer to grief is stepping back and admitting that none of us are the hub of the universes... reality makes it much easier to take
JudithG. . . . .and 'no one' we 'loss' is truly 'LOST'
RevRandy. . . . .yes, WT, but, as Rikkity has said in something we will share after the break - there may something keeping us from getting there
RevRandy. . . . .focus on the line --- "we often mistake ..... and assume it is all about the loss, but much of it is also about our reaction to the loss"
Elissa. . . . .so whitetiger, you think it has to do with ego?
WhiteTiger. . . . .sure do... and the fear(s) attendant to ego
JudithG. . . . .explain, please, WhiteTiger?
* JudithG loves to inter-JECT!
WhiteTiger. . . . .lol
WhiteTiger. . . . .far as I can tell, ego is the one consistent element in all fears...
JudithG. . . . .yeppers, WT
RevRandy. . . . .actually, WT, could you hold that thought for about 10 minutes while we take a break -- it would go well with our second hour
RevRandy. . . . .and you would have lead-off position
WhiteTiger. . . . .ack
RevRandy. . . . .ack?
JudithG. . . . .back?
RevRandy. . . . .snack?
JudithG. . . . .{{{{{{{RevRandy}}}}}}}}
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WhiteTiger. . . . .lol... "ack"... an expression of mild dismay stolen from a comic strip
RevRandy. . . . .ok - akin to arf from our friend Sandy
Elissa. . . . .you can continue, if you want to, whitetiger... but we really do need a break here
JudithG. . . . .{{{{{{Elissa & RevRandy}}}}}}
RevRandy. . . . .we need a short break -- but keep on talking while E and I take a moment
Elissa. . . . .bbbbbbbbrrrrrrrrrrreeeeeeeeeeeeaaaaaaaaaaaaaakkkkkkkkkkkkkkkk
WhiteTiger. . . . .I'm content to wait and see what develops :)
*** RevRandy is now known as RevRandyonbreak
JudithG. . . . .me too, WT
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*** Elissa is now known as Elissa_brb
JudithG. . . . .suwan, please KNOW you can 'call' on me anytime......via email or whichever....your 'grief' is VERY understandable.....inc. how you are dealing with it.....please be gentle on yourself, knowing you are VERY 'normal'
suwan. . . . .I'm not communicating well tonight, I know I'm normal
RevRandyonbreak. . . . .wait suwan - let's not go that far
suwan. . . . .hey! I thought you were gone!
RevRandyonbreak. . . . .I am broken
WhiteTiger. . . . .yer lucky Suwan! I been forced long since to admit to being loonie-toons ;)
*** RevRandyonbreak is now known as RevRandy
RevRandy. . . . .we are all bonkers - only some of us know it, and the rest are really crazy
suwan. . . . .no here is what I'm saying, I'm not fine, I'm normal, I don't believe anyone can help me through counseling because they cannot change what is true.
* JudithG KNOWS she is BONKERS!
* WhiteTiger models the snappy canvas jacket with the buckle-up sleeves ;)
JudithG. . . . .understand, suwan........thanks for clarifying
RevRandy. . . . .I want mine with velcro
WhiteTiger. . . . .that's cheating *G*
RevRandy. . . . .you ever try to undo velcro with both hands fastened?
RevRandy. . . . .but that's another story
WhiteTiger. . . . .yup... very dextrous toes LOL
JudithG. . . . .I 'use' my TEETH to unfasten that placement of velcro~
WhiteTiger. . . . .lmao
JudithG. . . . .ditto, WT
RevRandy. . . . .hmmmm, and when the feet and the hands are .....
WhiteTiger. . . . .that's when ya fall back on good karma, I guess
JudithG. . . . .good karma?
WhiteTiger. . . . .yep... hope ya rate a heavenly intervention ;)
RevRandy. . . . .ok- I think Elissa is coming back
RevRandy. . . . .so we can start up again
RevRandy. . . . .and get back to where we were .....
*** Elissa_brb is now known as Elissa
RevRandy. . . . .with WT in the speaker's seat
RevRandy. . . . .well, to prime the pump, here's Ms Rikkity again:
RevRandy. . . . . 0,2"Guilt and fear have been linked by religions because, in fact, they are linked.
RevRandy. . . . . 0,2In many people, guilt becomes the familiar feeling accepted in exchange for fear- -
RevRandy. . . . . 0,2which, no matter how often, can never feel familiar. Now let's unpack this... no, not the picnic lunch.
RevRandy. . . . . 0,2"What is the origin of fear.
RevRandy. . . . . 0,2A sense of not being in control, things happening to one. Ok.
RevRandy. . . . . 0,2And what is the source of guilt. A sense that one had complete control of the situation.
RevRandy. . . . . 0,2Two ends of the same pole.
RevRandy. . . . . 0,2And since ambiguity is so hard to deal with anytime, and especially so in stress,
RevRandy. . . . . 0,2we flee from the fear possibilities to the guilt certainties rather than live out of control and uncertain.
RevRandy. . . . . 0,2The path back from guilt is the path through our fears. You can't get out of guilt without dealing with those fears.
RevRandy. . . . . 0,2"And that's enough more say now to." (3/25/2000)
RevRandy. . . . .*
WhiteTiger. . . . .I like that "through the fears" :)
RevRandy. . . . .it is about through the fears
RevRandy. . . . .and this, I think does something different with guilt
WhiteTiger. . . . .only way I know to actually deal with them... pass right through the worst they can do, and on the other side you see how powerless the fear and feared thing actually is
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RevRandy. . . . .yessiree
* JudithG suggest 'life' is happening 'FOR" us, rather than 'TO' us!
WhiteTiger. . . . .agree JudithG :)
* JudithG 'suggest' we 'order up' our life experiences, as we 'need' them for spiritual growth
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Elissa. . . . .so that fits well with what you were saying about ego, wt
RevRandy. . . . .but by the very nature of fear, we may try to escape its terrible threat to ego by thinking we could be in control, and hence in failure to control feel guilt
WhiteTiger. . . . .only thing I'd question is the definition/genesis of fear
* JudithG suggests fear = not 'safe' with Self
Elissa. . . . .ego is what tells us we need to control... and that's fine, but we get it wrong and think that means we need to control everything
WhiteTiger. . . . .fear= anticipation of future pain
RevRandy. . . . .I would venture to suggest that fear is one of those remnants of our previously fierce attachment to the physical
RevRandy. . . . .in which threat to biological continuity is fearsome
Elissa. . . . .say more about that, wt?
WhiteTiger. . . . .and pain, be it physical, spiritual, mental or emotional, is just pain, and can be mastered
WhiteTiger. . . . .lol... it need not be fearsome... the shell is the least important bit, far as I can tell
WhiteTiger. . . . .just a "suit of clothes" for here/now...
RevRandy. . . . .I agree - but we still keep the old messages .... and I wonder if it is that fear can be mastered, or that fear can be transcended
RevRandy. . . . .living beyond fears
WhiteTiger. . . . .I stand corrected... transcended is the correct term... in either case, it need not be overriding
* JudithG suggests we be 'discerning' when surfacing 'old' emotions/viewpoints
Elissa. . . . .i believe we can act in spite of our fears and that's how we learn that they have no real power
RevRandy. . . . .one of my favorite movies is "Defending your Life" and his liberation comes not by taking control of his fear, but suddenly living so it has no place in him anymore
Elissa. . . . .right
WhiteTiger. . . . .agree completely, Elissa :)
Elissa. . . . .yay :)
* JudithG suggests we 'take' our FEARS with us, with reflection on 'source,' but move forward despite our fear......fear taken 'with' us = courage
Elissa. . . . .yes judy
WhiteTiger. . . . .living in fear is paying on the installment plan... each day, one has to ante up... much "cheaper" to face the anticipated pain head on and get it paid in one lump sum, without the accrued interest
RevRandy. . . . .but back to JudithG's question from long ago
RevRandy. . . . .about what rikkity might say about what to do
RevRandy. . . . . when we are in a guilt place
RevRandy. . . . .and as I read this
RevRandy. . . . .I think she is saying that guilt becomes a marker (where have I heard that before) that we need to look at our fears, and transcend,
RevRandy. . . . .knowing it is not about a feeling of failure of our powers, but feeling powerless, and in fear
RevRandy. . . . ."The coward dies a thousand deaths, the brave one dies but once" (well, actually once per go around)
* JudithG suggests that 'fear' and 'guilt' are VERY 'expensive' emotions, originating from our 'humanity'
WhiteTiger. . . . .:) the "human" is a troublemaker, for sure
JudithG. . . . .reconciliation w/ SELF is much more expedient, when related to Self
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Elissa. . . . . "What is the origin of fear. A sense of not being in control, things happening to one. Ok. And what is the source of guilt. A sense that one had complete
Elissa. . . . .control of the situation. Two ends of the same pole."
JudithG. . . . .exactly, the 'expectation' of control, without any control
RevRandy. . . . .and the assumption of a negative control (guilt)
WhiteTiger. . . . ."assumption without basis"
Elissa. . . . .so where do we think that assumption comes from?
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RevRandy. . . . .guilt is saying, in a way, "I failed to do what I had it in my power to do"
Elissa. . . . .hey fang!
fang. . . . .sorry i'm late
RevRandy. . . . .want to feel guilty about it, fang!?
fang. . . . .i guesss i willl
fang. . . . .((((elissa, revrandy)))))
Elissa. . . . .1 demerit, fang... sorry
JudithG. . . . .{{{{{{fang}}}}}}}}
WhiteTiger. . . . .and we're full circle, right back to reality... the reality being that there is only one driving, and none of us are that one
JudithG. . . . .like, I {me individually/alone in the universe = assumption} should/could have made 'outcome' different
RevRandy. . . . .or we are all part of that one
RevRandy. . . . .not superior to it, participatory in it
JudithG. . . . .reality = individual perception
WhiteTiger. . . . ."infinite paths, infinite travelers, and all ARE and are valid"
Elissa. . . . .i wonder where we get the idea we're supposed to have that control...
RevRandy. . . . .from early toilet training ;-)
Elissa. . . . .lol randy
b. . . . .feels better to lose control *S*
Elissa. . . . .or is it simply a lack of awareness about how spiritual reality operates and how we tend to make everything so concrete
* JudithG suggests there is NO 'one' reality, other than, 'all is well'
JudithG. . . . .indeed, Elissa......mis-perceptions, those that 'miss' the truth Reality
Elissa. . . . .losing control is not scary for you, b?
b. . . . .at first yes Elissa
Elissa. . . . .b, and so then what happens to make it ok for you? could you give us an example?
b. . . . .it's ok when I realize i have no control
Elissa. . . . .that's great b
b. . . . .*S* Elissa, yes
crank001. . . . .i agree
RevRandy. . . . .no control, but many opportunities
RevRandy. . . . .I agree E - we at this spiritual level are on the cusp between totally physical and something else, yet to be understood
Elissa. . . . .nice phrase, randy :)
JudithG. . . . .yes, we are 'graduating' as humankind, to the 4th dimension and beyond
Elissa. . . . .it's so hard being physical and trying to get past that concrete thinking
RevRandy. . . . .and our goal is not to be eternally "here" but to move on
crank001. . . . .welcome to the time zone
RevRandy. . . . .and yet guilt is usually about our failure to be here
RevRandy. . . . .in our own eyes
WhiteTiger. . . . .I figure the race as a whole is on the verge of graduating from the place that is now of human spirit to this one... a larger playground, with more possibilities and more room for growth
Elissa. . . . .i hope so, wt... we're sure trying!
RevRandy. . . . .(and other spiritual entities just coming to this complexity will take our places in this place
JudithG. . . . .there is NO 'try'......only DO {wink}
Elissa. . . . .ooops judy you caught me lol... i was hoping no one would notice i used the "t" word
WhiteTiger. . . . .lol Judith... "try"= I anticipate failure
JudithG. . . . .indeed, WT
RevRandy. . . . .I am very trying sometimes myself
JudithG. . . . .LOL
RevRandy. . . . .just ask E
Elissa. . . . .no comment lol
fang. . . . .i was just getting ready to ask, really, e?
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Elissa. . . . .hey marie :)
Marie1. . . . .hi
RevRandy. . . . .hey Marie
Marie1. . . . .hi everyone. thanks Rev
RevRandy. . . . .so, that is what we have been given to share about guilt -
RevRandy. . . . .anyone have something she/he wants to add
Elissa. . . . .so this coming to terms with guilt seems to me to relate to letting go of our past mistakes and also letting go of others--forgiveness that allows us to move on in love
crank001. . . . .guilt a heavy load to carry
fang. . . . .may i ask if i can get a log of tonight, and who do i ask for one? if i can?
Elissa. . . . .me, fang... and yes you can
RevRandy. . . . .you just did - and Elissa will probably send you one (if you plead with her)
RevRandy. . . . .and fall obediently at her cyber feet
Hanna. . . . .lol
* JudithG suggests 'guilt' can be a 'luxury' {trap} we indulge, until we are 'ready' to make a 'course' correction, so to speak
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RevRandy. . . . .but that correction may require energy we don't feel we have because we are investing so much energy in our guilt
Elissa. . . . .randy can you run that ptop one more time please
RevRandy. . . . .I can try .... lol
RevRandy. . . . . 0,2"Guilt and fear have been linked by religions because, in fact, they are linked.
RevRandy. . . . . 0,2In many people, guilt becomes the familiar feeling accepted in exchange for fear- -
RevRandy. . . . . 0,2which, no matter how often, can never feel familiar. Now let's unpack this... no, not the picnic lunch.
RevRandy. . . . . 0,2"What is the origin of fear.
RevRandy. . . . . 0,2A sense of not being in control, things happening to one. Ok.
RevRandy. . . . . 0,2And what is the source of guilt. A sense that one had complete control of the situation.
RevRandy. . . . . 0,2Two ends of the same pole.
RevRandy. . . . . 0,2And since ambiguity is so hard to deal with anytime, and especially so in stress,
RevRandy. . . . . 0,2we flee from the fear possibilities to the guilt certainties rather than live out of control and uncertain.
RevRandy. . . . . 0,2The path back from guilt is the path through our fears. You can't get out of guilt without dealing with those fears.
RevRandy. . . . . 0,2"And that's enough more say now to." (3/25/2000)
WhiteTiger. . . . .another perspective on it is "guilt= fear of judgement"
Elissa. . . . .wt, guilt = fear of judgment?
WhiteTiger. . . . .sure Elissa... if you erroneously assume responsibility for shoulda/coulda/wouldas, and perceive them to be errors of your making, then you gotta figure you are unworthy and will be judged and found lacking, right?
RevRandy. . . . .right
RevRandy. . . . .the trap of the conceit of our own circle of control and therefore responsibility
WhiteTiger. . . . .and that leads back to anticipated pain/fear... cause being judged and found wanting is spiritual pain
* JudithG suggests 'judgment' originates in our 'humanity,' but when we 'shift' to our spiritual Self, we are able to 'see' the distinction
Elissa. . . . .interesting point... so you're saying some of the guilt comes from what we perceive as others' expectations?
WhiteTiger. . . . .and our own expectations too, Elissa
WhiteTiger. . . . .self judgement is the harshest
Elissa. . . . .yes, and our own expectations having to do with control
* JudithG suggests we 'fear' others' judgment, when living in our humanity 'self'
Elissa. . . . .judy, how do you define "humanity"?
WhiteTiger. . . . .lol... I better shut up... I keep having to stop myself from getting off on wild tangents
Elissa. . . . .we love wild tangents here, wt :)
Elissa. . . . .go for it
JudithG. . . . .we our 'natural' human self, Elissa......one that 'identifies' with FEAR
RevRandy. . . . .and with physical limitations and thinks of finite being
Elissa. . . . .ok jg, i see
JudithG. . . . .excuse the typos, please
Elissa. . . . .no that won't be possible... you should have done better LOL
JudithG. . . . .rofl
RevRandy. . . . .no WT - this does not seem a wild tangent
WhiteTiger. . . . .I'd rather see what comes up from you folks... not often I get to see other perspectives clearly stated
Elissa. . . . .wt, this is about your
Elissa. . . . .ooops pay no attention to that sentence fragment lol
WhiteTiger. . . . .lol
WhiteTiger. . . . .typus interruptus *G*
Elissa. . . . .lol
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RevRandy. . . . .For me, I know that from now on when I encounter guilt, in myself or others, I will understand as "taking the easier way out" for fear of fears
JudithG. . . . .however, I 'suggest' NO 'guilt' on those who don't 'get it'
RevRandy. . . . .no guilt on anyone - those who really get it would never judge others
WhiteTiger. . . . .exactly RR :)
Elissa. . . . .the trick is to be able to be aware of it... so many times we don't even recognize it as guilt--we just think we're wrong or mistaken or lacking somehow
JudithG. . . . .yes, Elissa.....and 'embrace' our humanity....which stumbles over the 'past' perceptions
RevRandy. . . . .I seem to remember a number of people who have said that - the Buddha, Jesus, Mohammed
WhiteTiger. . . . .and it always gets twisted to mean something other than what was said, it seems
RevRandy. . . . .yep - it becomes a statement about making judgements, not a freedom from judgement
JudithG. . . . .yes, WT....but we KNOW 'our' intentions.....we can only be 'accountable' for our agenda
Elissa. . . . .and those who inflict guilt on others are definitely not aware of what they're doing... they're just trying to feel ok about themselves, i think
WhiteTiger. . . . .agree Elissa :) the "feel good" is the grail and payoff all too often
RevRandy. . . . .yes - Elissa - "I can feel better if I can make it seem you are responsible"
Elissa. . . . .yep
JudithG. . . . .but this 'feel better' is VERY temporary
RevRandy. . . . .very temporary, if at all.
Elissa. . . . .aye there's the rub, jg
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RevRandy. . . . .is that 0,2And since ambiguity is so hard to deal with anytime, and especially so in stress,
RevRandy. . . . . 0,2we flee from the fear possibilities to the guilt certainties rather than live out of control and uncertain.
RevRandy. . . . . 0,2The path back from guilt is the path through our fears. You can't get out of guilt without dealing with those fears.
RevRandy. . . . . 0,2"And that's enough more say now to." (3/25/2000)
Elissa. . . . .carol you're late... even later than fang
* JudithG suggests we 'humans' until under our own Self-control, are prone to such perceptions
WhiteTiger. . . . .and to my thinking, that is the standard "trap" for folks who "get into" spiritual matters seeking answers... they find that feel-good and stop dead
Elissa. . . . .oooo wt, that is often very true... but probably we're all "guilty" of that one at one time or another lol
* Carol hangs her head
RevRandy. . . . .hey Carol
Carol. . . . .Blame the Wellness Center
JudithG. . . . .{{{{{Carol}}}}}}
RevRandy. . . . .pick up that head, smile, and come say hi to the folks
* Elissa pats carol on the head and gives her 2 demerits
Carol. . . . .hi everyone, I really am sorry I am late :)
RevRandy. . . . .well, you made it just in time for our closing
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Carol. . . . .I seem to be good at that lately!
RevRandy. . . . .now, will someone summarize for them
Elissa. . . . .yes randy, you will :)
WhiteTiger. . . . .lol
RevRandy. . . . .guilt=fear=loss of control=end of growth
RevRandy. . . . .QED
JudithG. . . . . = stuck
RevRandy. . . . .or not
Elissa. . . . .= huh
RevRandy. . . . .wha
JudithG. . . . .fear = stuck
WhiteTiger. . . . .lol
Elissa. . . . .better ask for a log, folks
JudithG. . . . .LOL
RevRandy. . . . .and make that a log of this chat
Carol. . . . .not one to burn in the fireplace, right
* WhiteTiger cancels plans to send out chunks of pine
RevRandy. . . . .because the time is now 11, and time for an Academy award winning song
JudithG. . . . .have we 'covered' the principles/dynamics of 'fear' {doubt, guilt}
RevRandy. . . . .I am afraid we have not, and I feel guilty about that
Elissa. . . . .yep and now we're all guiltless and ready to move on... not lol
RevRandy. . . . .absolution for the whole bar
JudithG. . . . .well, perhaps we 'stalled' the forward motion, out of our own fears? {winking furiously}
Elissa. . . . .ok, so here comes the rainbow song but first i'd like to thank everyone who participated tonight for a very thought-provoking discussion!
RevRandy. . . . .yes = thank you all
[SOUND]
* Playing txplay20.mrc to #SpiritualPersistence with 50ms delay
Elissa. . . . . 8,1!Elissa rainbow.mid 1,8 :o)
JudithG. . . . .{{{{{{{Elissa & RevRandy}}}}}}}}}}}
RevRandy. . . . .nite to all!!!!!
* b : Goodnight everyone!
JudithG. . . . .nite nite to RevRandy & Elissa
fang. . . . .night
Marie1. . . . .nite Rev, b, and Judith
Carol. . . . .night JudithG
JudithG. . . . .nite nite all!
Zuzu. . . . .Thanks Rev. Nite Judy and all
Elissa. . . . .nite everyone and thanks again!
* Hanna waves goodnight to everyone.. stay safe! :)
Session Close: Sun Mar 26 23:09:06 2000