log040200

Session Start: Sun Apr 02 20:38:40 2000 *** Now talking in #SpiritualPersistence
*** Topic is ' 2,4~ Next 2,7Topic: 2,8"Fools and Tricks" 2,9Sunday 2,11April 2 0,12at 9pm 2,13EST ~ 0,2Hosted by Rev. Dr. Randolph Becker & Elissa Bishop Becker (and Rikkity). URL: www.spiritualpersistence.com '

RevRandy. . . .OK - let's start
Elissa. . . .ok
RevRandy. . . .and get Spiritual Persistence underway
RevRandy. . . .welcome everyone
RevRandy. . . .glad you are here
RevRandy. . . .do we have any newcomers who would like an explanation of what this is all about?
b. . . .glad to be here *S*
HarrietC. . . .yes
angeliis. . . .I would
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Elissa. . . .ok, here's who we are and (i hope) why you're here :)
Elissa. . . .RevRandy has been a Unitarian Universalist minister for
Elissa. . . .almost 30 years, with a thriving congregation in
Elissa. . . .Williamsburg, VA. I am a writer, medium, and counselor with
Elissa. . . .a Master's degree (M.Ed.) in Community Counseling.
Elissa. . . .My and RevRandy's daughter, Ericka (now known as Rikkity in spirit)
Elissa. . . .died in an automobile collision with a drunk driver
Elissa. . . .on August 20, 1995. She was 20 years old, and going into
Elissa. . . .her junior year at Yale. 8 days after her death, RevRandy
Elissa. . . .and I began communicating with her.
Elissa. . . .Spiritual Persistence is Rikkity's name for the
Elissa. . . .wisdom she has shared with us in the form of Points to
Elissa. . . .Ponder. It is a unique vision of the nature of spiritual
Elissa. . . .and physical existence, of the continuity between life
Elissa. . . .and death, of connection, and of our place in the universe.
Elissa. . . .And it is guidance we follow that has helped us to learn,
Elissa. . . .to heal from grief, and to live better lives. We are here to
Elissa. . . .share this wisdom with you and to explore what it means
Elissa. . . .to you personally, as we learn from one another on this journey.
Elissa. . . .If you have any further questions, please feel free to
Elissa. . . .private message (pm) anyone with an "@" in front of their name
Elissa. . . .or email Randy (RevRandy@spiritualpersistence.com)
Elissa. . . .or me (ebb@spiritualpersistence.com) any time.
Elissa. . . .And please let us know if you would like to be on our email list
Elissa. . . .for chat notices and Points to Ponder.
Elissa. . . .Thanks for coming... and again, welcome!
Elissa. . . .Does anyone have any questions before we begin?
RevRandy. . . .Then let us begin with our simple invocation:
RevRandy. . . .May we be connected to all things loving
RevRandy. . . .Protected from all things evil
RevRandy. . . .and guided in all ways gracious. Amen
HarrietC. . . .Amen
Hanna. . . .Blessings to all
Elissa. . . .amen~
TF88. . . .peace
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RevRandy. . . .well, as some of you know, we were given some points to ponder for tonight:
RevRandy. . . . 0,2"Now let's talk about SP. But first, 3 comments:
RevRandy. . . . 0,21. Don't forget the clock change.
RevRandy. . . . 0,22. I am mad that we didn't get a April 1st on a Sunday.
RevRandy. . . . 0,23. Since time doesn't matter, I don't care. So we will talk about fools and tricks.
RevRandy. . . . 0,2"What makes a fool. And what tricks has life played on you. And into that
RevRandy. . . . 0,2bring the image of the trickster: not bad, not good, just paradoxical and
RevRandy. . . . 0,2enigmatic. And so we find that April 1 is about ambiguity; and tricks remind
RevRandy. . . . 0,2us that, while life as a whole offers meaning through our capacity to learn
RevRandy. . . . 0,2and remember, in any given moment it is more perplexing than meaningful. And
RevRandy. . . . 0,2one of the tricks of life is that we do not see the pieces until we grasp the whole.
RevRandy. . . .Well, here is an interesting, introductory tidbit
RevRandy. . . .What tricks has life played on you?
RevRandy. . . .Let's talk about that for a moment.
RevRandy. . . .What does that bring up in you?
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angeliis. . . .what do you mean by tricks?
RevRandy. . . .your definition - let's see where that goes
HarrietC. . . .anger
Elissa. . . .for me, it took my daughter and gave me a guide and a new identity
RevRandy. . . .how so Harriet?
HarrietC. . . .life took my husband, gave me time to ponder, then
HarrietC. . . .gave me a new love, and took him away also
fang. . . .it took my dad, 8 years yesterday, and 4 years ago for mom
Elissa. . . .o harriet :(
RevRandy. . . .such losses
Elissa. . . .((((((fang))))))
fang. . . .i know one demerit for being late
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Elissa. . . .thanks for reminding me lol
RevRandy. . . .but now Harriet - how is it for you
HarrietC. . . .still rough, fiance was taken away in Dec 99
RevRandy. . . .o dear .... so you know the trickster
HarrietC. . . .know him well
RevRandy. . . .but I think it is interesting that the native cultures knew the trickster as a spirit
RevRandy. . . .that allowed us to put meaning on what he did
RevRandy. . . .things in and of themselves do not have a value - events that is -
RevRandy. . . .but what we do with them
RevRandy. . . .Has this been your experience?
Elissa. . . .say more about that randy
RevRandy. . . .OK - let's take death ...
RevRandy. . . .if we see death as a move of a trickster
RevRandy. . . .we see this clearly
RevRandy. . . .someone is greeted by death
RevRandy. . . .if that person is suffering greatly, then death is a welcome friend
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RevRandy. . . .although those left behind may grieve deeply
RevRandy. . . .But for a real scoundrel, s/he may grieve their own death while other may rejoice at this end
TF88. . . .oh my, interesting way of looking at it.
Elissa. . . .and what if the person is not suffering greatly and wanted to stay?
RevRandy. . . .Death as an event is either neutral or ambiguous
RevRandy. . . .waiting for us to put meaning into it
RevRandy. . . .And E, then that would change the picture for the dead person, but might or might not for others
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Elissa. . . .hey deni-face!
Deni. . . .hey Lissa-Pooh :)
Deni. . . .Hi everyone :)
RevRandy. . . .the event does not contain an inherent value
RevRandy. . . . 0,2"What makes a fool. And what tricks has life played on you. And into that
RevRandy. . . . 0,2bring the image of the trickster: not bad, not good, just paradoxical and
RevRandy. . . . 0,2enigmatic. And so we find that April 1 is about ambiguity; and tricks remind
RevRandy. . . . 0,2us that, while life as a whole offers meaning through our capacity to learn
RevRandy. . . . 0,2and remember, in any given moment it is more perplexing than meaningful. And
RevRandy. . . . 0,2one of the tricks of life is that we do not see the pieces until we grasp the whole.
Elissa. . . .or it contains all values?
RevRandy. . . .the possibility of all values
RevRandy. . . .thus it is more perplexing than meaningful IN SPECIFICS
RevRandy. . . .a single event may actual present us with a multitude of meanings at the same time
RevRandy. . . .and where it will all fit in the larger picture we will not know until later
Elissa. . . .perplexing meaning that we can't see the whole picture and we can't understand the specifics until we do
TF88. . . .and we choose which ones we will see/experience?
RevRandy. . . .I think so
RevRandy. . . .choose, or see, or need
RevRandy. . . .it could be that in an event we see what we need at one time, and may see something else when we have changed
RevRandy. . . .how many of you have been perplexed by something which later became clear?
RevRandy. . . .did it change, or did you?
RevRandy. . . .or both
Elissa. . . .great question
HarrietC. . . .I have, and I changed
RevRandy. . . .so, for you personal perspective made a difference
Elissa. . . .how did you change harriet?
HarrietC. . . .one month before my husband passed,
HarrietC. . . .i suddenly switched jobs from one that had me away from home all the time
HarrietC. . . .to one where I actually spend time with my family
HarrietC. . . .I slowed down, sat down to dinner each night,
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HarrietC. . . .actually had a home life to enjoy before tragedy struck
HarrietC. . . .but I was given a chance to spend some time with the husband before his departure
RevRandy. . . .so, you put the pieces together in a different way
Elissa. . . .you chose to enjoy what you had
HarrietC. . . .didn't realize this until much later
RevRandy. . . .great observation
RevRandy. . . .about seeing it all later -
RevRandy. . . .that last part of the point from Rikkity
RevRandy. . . . 0,2"What makes a fool. And what tricks has life played on you. And into that
RevRandy. . . . 0,2bring the image of the trickster: not bad, not good, just paradoxical and
RevRandy. . . . 0,2enigmatic. And so we find that April 1 is about ambiguity; and tricks remind
RevRandy. . . . 0,2us that, while life as a whole offers meaning through our capacity to learn
RevRandy. . . . 0,2and remember, in any given moment it is more perplexing than meaningful. And
RevRandy. . . . 0,2one of the tricks of life is that we do not see the pieces until we grasp the whole.
RevRandy. . . .we do not see the pieces until we grasp the whole.
HarrietC. . . .but haven't quite figured out the whys behind the loss of my fiancee
RevRandy. . . .maybe there are "whys" and maybe there are not in terms we would understand yet
Elissa. . . .often the answers to the 'whys' come in what we learn later, as you've seen harriet
HarrietC. . . .it's just so hard and so much suffering to get to that point
RevRandy. . . .yes - it can be really hard ... but we also know that real meaning is only found by going through what is presented to us, not by avoiding it
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RevRandy. . . .hard as that can be, it is where we are, and where are meaning will be found
RevRandy. . . .well, Rikkity continued:
RevRandy. . . . 0,2"So a series of ambiguous moments may add up to momentous understanding. Can
RevRandy. . . . 0,2anyone relate to that. Yes, anyone... anyone... anyone. And then the U.S.
RevRandy. . . . 0,2sank deeper into the Great Depression. [from "Ferris Bueller's Day Off"].
RevRandy. . . . 0,2But I use the quote mindfully. When we look for meaning in the small pieces
RevRandy. . . . 0,2and not the grand sweep, we fall into depression. What depresses people
RevRandy. . . . 0,2spiritually is that they do not sense a growing meaning in the moment. Faith
RevRandy. . . . 0,2speaks to a larger understanding that beyond the tricks of nature there is
RevRandy. . . . 0,2meaning; and faith is not about a belief in a particular set of meanings,
RevRandy. . . . 0,2but about there being a set of meanings in every life.
RevRandy. . . .
RevRandy. . . .I like this notion that a series of ambiguous moments
RevRandy. . . .may add up to momentous understanding.
RevRandy. . . .And I have found this to be true for myself -
Elissa. . . .faith, do you speak to a larger understanding? :)
Faith. . . .You can't see the big picture, when you're staring at the cracks
RevRandy. . . .well put faith
Elissa. . . .that's true
RevRandy. . . .and some the elements themselves may look devoid of meaning, but need to be there to be part of the overall picture
fang. . . .uh oh i think i'm a crack starer :)
Elissa. . . .o no!
RevRandy. . . .I think for myself about those undyed strings which appear to have nothing to do with the design of a woven rug
RevRandy. . . .which do not add to the pattern
RevRandy. . . .but without which there would be nothing to hold the rest together.
Elissa. . . .actually i know someone who is depressed who focuses only on those little things... she makes all her switchplate screws go the same way
RevRandy. . . .o dear (let me check the ones in this room)
Elissa. . . .lol
RevRandy. . . .meaning is made of a pattern of elements, not total meaning in each element
RevRandy. . . .does this make sense to y'all?
HarrietC. . . .yes
TF88. . . .yes
b. . . .Yes*
RevRandy. . . .but even as we know this, we (should I say I) try to see meaning in everything little thing -
Faith. . . .Yes, we're just not suppose to know all the whys, or any of them. It's just acceptance that there is a God and it's not us
Elissa. . . .i think it's that way with life: if we look at each event it seems meaningless but if we look at the whole we begin to see a pattern
Elissa. . . .it's the same with dreams... or musical notes... or anything
RevRandy. . . .or reading a book - each word may not bring much meaning - but together they tell the story
Elissa. . . .or brushstrokes on a painting... ever look at just the strokes? the painting becomes formless
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b. . . .funny you mention "musical notes (words also)*
RevRandy. . . .how so, b?
Elissa. . . .funny, b?
b. . . .I was told my spirit guide may communicate to me through music*
RevRandy. . . .ok - understand
Elissa. . . .beautiful way to communicate :)
b. . . .Yes, Elissa. But I was not listening until it was pointed out to me :(
Elissa. . . .and b, to answer your question from last week: yes, we need to accept our sadness and every other feeling we feel and thought we think because they are all a part of that bigger picture
RevRandy. . . .that can be one of those breakthrough moments when we see the parts we should see for the first time
b. . . .*S* Thank you Elissa*S*
Elissa. . . .:)
RevRandy. . . .well, here's more from Rikkity:
RevRandy. . . . 0,2"When you approach life with a microscope, you look so hard at minute
RevRandy. . . . 0,2details that you lose the bigger picture. This happens in grief. And if you
RevRandy. . . . 0,2look at life through a telescope, then it is seen at a distance and seems
RevRandy. . . . 0,2removed--which is the response of some in grief. But when we can restore a
RevRandy. . . . 0,21-to-1 ratio of viewpoint, then we move towards understanding. Too close and
RevRandy. . . . 0,2we think it is all personal, and too distant and we think it is all devoid
RevRandy. . . . 0,2of meaning. Not scientific or objective, shmective... it is more a question
RevRandy. . . . 0,2of perspectives. If you don't sense the whole picture, that's not good; and
RevRandy. . . . 0,2if you remove yourself from the whole picture, no better. Look, if you are
RevRandy. . . . 0,2part of All That Is, then you better be there. And if All That Is cannot
RevRandy. . . . 0,2exist without you, you better show up.
RevRandy. . . .And the question could be: how do you live life - through a microscope or through a telescope or on equal terms
TF88. . . .well, that brings to mind the learning of a piece of music I've likely brought up before.
RevRandy. . . .yes
TF88. . . .to be able to master performing a piece of music, one has to see both the minute and the grand aspects
TF88. . . .simultaneously
TF88. . . .one without the other doesn't work :)
RevRandy. . . .and I think that can be extrapolated to other areas of life too, TF: but the musical example is a powerful one
Elissa. . . .o great analogy, tf! and that's true for so many other things as well
TF88. . . .yes for other things, exactly.
RevRandy. . . .I was intrigued in this with the idea of the two postures of grief
RevRandy. . . .to over analyse things, or to put them at a great distance
RevRandy. . . .and sometimes to swing between the two
RevRandy. . . .and when we move to a balance between the two, we meet life, even in sorrow and pain, on its terms, and therefore can deduce meaning from it
Elissa. . . . "one has to see both the minute and the grand aspects simultaneously"... grief seems to pull us in one direction or the other... i wonder what other emotions might do that, too
RevRandy. . . .Well, I note by my properly advanced clock that it is now 10 pm EDT, so it is time for our break .......
RevRandy. . . .don't go far away - we'll be back in about 10 minutes with the second half of these thoughts
Elissa. . . .ooops ok, bbbbbrrrrreeeeeeeaaaaaakkkkkkkk
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Elissabrb. . . .meanwhile, chat away folks!
Elissabrb. . . .or not lol
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Hanna. . . .I like your analogy TF.. good one :)
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TF88. . . .thanks Hanna :)
Keep. . . .Hi Hanna and group
Hanna. . . .Hey keep! :)
TF88. . . .hi keep!
Hanna. . . .I am just kinda pondering on all of this conversation so far.
Jackie. . . .Hi everyone
Hanna. . . .Hi Jackie
Keep. . . .Hi Jackie
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TF88. . . .hello jackie
Hanna. . . .Hello Neshua
Keep. . . .Sorry I missed some of the discussion. Looking forward to the log.
* Neshua : Hello everyone!
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journey. . . .hi elissa
Elissa. . . .hey journey!
Keep. . . .Hi Elissa
Elissa. . . .((((((keep)))))) hi!
RevRandy. . . .so, here we go again
Elissa. . . .everyone remember to change your clocks? )
Keep. . . .thanks for the hug. (((((((back to you Elissa)))))))))))
journey. . . .just did :)
Elissa. . . .hahaha
Deni. . . .yeppers
RevRandy. . . .so, here's where Rikkitty went with all of this
RevRandy. . . . 0,2"Recovery from loss is about reestablishing a 1-to-1 ratio with life--equal
RevRandy. . . . 0,2terms, partners, compadres, amigos. [Rather than looking at life as an
RevRandy. . . . 0,2antagonist, or at yourself as a victim.] Which is why loss is multiply-part.
RevRandy. . . . 0,2We lose someone physically, and we also lose the relationship we had with
RevRandy. . . . 0,2life itself. When we are in a good ratio it is as if we were married to
RevRandy. . . . 0,2life, but come a loss or death and we also have to deal with the breakup of
RevRandy. . . . 0,2our marriage with life. It's like the loved one left and our supportive
RevRandy. . . . 0,2partner also decided to leave. And that's the trick of it. Life didn't leave
RevRandy. . . . 0,2us, we left it and need to find our way back. Whoa. So, that's enough.
RevRandy. . . .I was really intrigued by this
Elissa. . . .me too
RevRandy. . . .taking on the idea of 1 to 1 relationship with life,
RevRandy. . . .and then the double loss in loss
RevRandy. . . .as we not only lose a loved one,
RevRandy. . . .but we also fall out of sync with life itself
RevRandy. . . .the ratio changes from 1 to 1 to either microscopic 40 to 1, or telescopic 1 to 40
RevRandy. . . .we lose, and we lose perspective
RevRandy. . . .does this make sense?
journey. . . .i think with my loss i realized i lost perspective and felt like part of Me was lost, yes
journey. . . .and i wanted to go too, to be out of the loop of life
RevRandy. . . .we may even think we are "losing it" totally, all because we have lost our perspective
Elissa. . . .o yes, isn't that interesting... losing perspective feels like losing our own identity and connection to life
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RevRandy. . . .and many people think that the way to restore the perspective is to follow the lost one into death
Elissa. . . .and it's really we who have lost 'us'
journey. . . .heheh here a sec and babbling, i shall be good and quiet, but your topics are so insightful :)
Elissa. . . .journey if you're quiet i'll have to send you to the corner lol
journey. . . .lol ((hugs)))
HarrietC. . . .I just can't determine which part I am at this time, the microscope or telescope
RevRandy. . . .or both?
Keep. . . .I missed the first part of this sharing, but in my losses I have found connection and meaning and understanding beyond anything I ever realized before.
Elissa. . . .keep, how did you get there?
Keep. . . .hummmm.....I guess I accepted the loss of those close to me as part of life.
Keep. . . .maybe an understanding from another life. They
Keep. . . .have since come forward to show me where to go from one point to another.
Keep. . . .make sense?
Elissa. . . .yes, and you found a new connection to life... and to those you thought had been lost
Keep. . . .Yes. Elissa.
RevRandy. . . .How about that last idea - Life didn't leave us, we left it and need to find our way back.
Keep. . . .maybe once you understand "life" doesn't leave we can understand we or they haven't left.
journey. . . .Rev, I think our commitment to learning helps us maintain our connection to life
RevRandy. . . .but learning is also something that may seem impossible in intense grief (What am I going to learn from this?)
HarrietC. . . .YES
Hanna. . . .Randy.. isn't it possible simply to allow the grief and leave the learning until later?
journey. . . .sometimes the only thing you learn is that you wont die from it and that pain deepens your desire for life
RevRandy. . . .I think that is what we do Hanna
Keep. . . .I have a searching within me to understand, searching, searching.........
RevRandy. . . .and yes, Journey, that happens for many
Elissa. . . .allowing the grief has to come first... acceptance is key, i believe
b. . . .so do I :)
TF88. . . .to "allow the grief" is to experience the grief...thus learning is happening whether we are aware of it or not.
RevRandy. . . .and maybe our experience of learning is an indicator that we are bringing the ratio back into balance
Keep. . . .interesting, the pain makes you search for learning and understanding.
Elissa. . . .maybe that searching is the attempt to find balance and remarriage with life
Keep. . . .or purpose and path in this life.
RevRandy. . . .keep, pain that brings about learning is better than empty pain
Keep. . . .very true
Keep. . . .but what is empty pain?
Elissa. . . .gibran wrote a poem that said something like "pain cuts out room in our hearts for love." i think it does that for learning too
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RevRandy. . . .empty pain is the pain that hurts like hell, robs us of all sense of being alive, and which seem to have no redeeming meaning in it
RevRandy. . . .the immediate pain of loss
Elissa. . . .maybe empty pain is pain without learning and growth... getting stuck in it
RevRandy. . . .the pain which, when you feel it, seems to put you beyond ever living, loving, being whole again
Elissa. . . .pain without hope
Keep. . . .but maybe we need to feel we have that empty pain to go on and fill it with something more meaningful in our life.
journey. . . .how can a person help someone with that kind of pain?
TF88. . . .Gibran wrote about pain..."Your pain is the breaking of the shell that encloses your understanding."
Keep. . . .that sounds like hitting rock bottom to go up again to me.
RevRandy. . . .journey - I think one can just be there - hugs, etc
Elissa. . . .suggest they get counseling
journey. . . .ty
Keep. . . .hugs, listening
Keep. . . .unconditional love
RevRandy. . . .and not offer easy answers, nor offer no hope
Keep. . . .been doing that for a family member for three years. Not easy but necessary and with love.
Elissa. . . .journey sometimes the best we can do is 'be'... be someone who has survived that pain and learned and grown from it
RevRandy. . . .Yes, and keep, as you mention, it can take time
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Keep. . . .time
Keep. . . .no time limits
RevRandy. . . .if you truly love another, it is about being there for the long haul
Elissa. . . .time does not do anything... we need to do the work
RevRandy. . . .yes - what I meant was no external timetables
Keep. . . .but isn't time as well as love a healer? There I go. What is time?
RevRandy. . . .time is not a healer unless a person uses the space (time) to do the work that s/he needs
Keep. . . .true
Elissa. . . .time is just time... i know many people who are stuck in the same pain waiting for time to take it away
Elissa. . . .waiting, that is :)
RevRandy. . . .because people put out ideas about how if you grieve for x amount of time, that will take care of it
Keep. . . .i.e. RevRandy again. it is what a person uses the space to do the work
RevRandy. . . .I also wonder about the mirror image of this - we don't believe that love and connection runs on the same schedule for everyone
RevRandy. . . .we know that relationships grow at different paces
RevRandy. . . .so loss of those relationships also have differ paces of meaning growth
journey. . . .i agree
Elissa. . . .every relationship is unique, as is every loss
RevRandy. . . .very true, e
Keep. . . .so is that why I hear from the other side some and not others?
RevRandy. . . .and every loss will be experiences in a unique way by each person within a relationship web
Elissa. . . .that could be one reason keep
Keep. . . .ty
RevRandy. . . .keep - not everybody over there believes they can communicate back to here
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Keep. . . .interesting. I thought they would know that they could.
RevRandy. . . .you can't have a conversation unless both sides "pick up the phone"
Keep. . . .see, I am searching
Elissa. . . .just as not everyone here believes communication with spirit is possible...
Elissa. . . .you don't experience if you don't believe
Keep. . . .once you have had it though I want it with all of them. LOL
Elissa. . . .of course! lol
RevRandy. . . .the other side is more a time to consolidate what you learn and remember from life, but there is not some automatic spiritual enlightenment just by being dead
Keep. . . .interesting thought to ponder
RevRandy. . . .well, let's wind up these words from "over there":
RevRandy. . . . 0,2"Tricks of life are only tricks until we integrate ourselves and them into a
RevRandy. . . . 0,2larger perspective. People talk about a cruel twist of fate, but it is cruel
RevRandy. . . . 0,2only if we think it is; and it is a twist or trick of fate only if we view
RevRandy. . . . 0,2it that way. And usually that means we try to impose our view of causation
RevRandy. . . . 0,2upon a situation without causation. Ok, grad students, ‘correlation is not
RevRandy. . . . 0,2causation.' And when we learn and remember that, ahhh.
RevRandy. . . .I hear so much in this
RevRandy. . . .about it being about our view of things, not in the nature of things
RevRandy. . . .and the way to get beyond "tricks" is to find a way to integrate it all into a picture
Elissa. . . .TF88: Gibran wrote about pain..."Your pain is the breaking of the shell that encloses your understanding."
Keep. . . .Wow, I like that!
RevRandy. . . .the trick may not be what is happening to you, but what you might do with it.
journey. . . .would tricks = fate or predestination?
RevRandy. . . .only if we view it that way
RevRandy. . . .and our understanding is that there is no predestination
RevRandy. . . .many probable realities, all spun in a web of existence
RevRandy. . . .each possible, but none predestined
Keep. . . .free will
RevRandy. . . .free will, or free possibilities
Elissa. . . .correlation is not causation is something i learned in statistics (yuck) and it applies so well to those "why" questions... wrong question!
journey. . . .ahhhh i like free possibilities
Keep. . . .interesting. Using our free will to free our possibilities.
RevRandy. . . .or free opportunities
Keep. . . .nothing is written in stone.
Elissa. . . .just because there's a connection doesn't mean one caused the other to happen... so the question then becomes, "what is the relationship"
Elissa. . . .(rambling by myself here lol)
RevRandy. . . .I'm here
journey. . . .agree, and then i think ok what is relationship and then how and why did i draw it to me
journey. . . .and then why why why
b. . . .but it helps me Elissa :)"
RevRandy. . . .yep Journey and Elissa -
Elissa. . . .why why why lol
Elissa. . . .helps you how, b?
b. . . .Your "ramblings" :)
Elissa. . . .ah, thank you... that's good to know :)
b. . . .no..ty :)
RevRandy. . . .I think it is important to be able to differentiate between what is causative and what is coincidental
RevRandy. . . .and part of the journey of growth and recovery is to be able to see this
Keep. . . .relationship and why did I draw it to me = what am I to learn from this.
Elissa. . . .yes keep
RevRandy. . . .and guilt may be an inability to see this
Elissa. . . .is it possible to figure that out for sure, randy?
RevRandy. . . .no, but asking about it is better than assuming it
Elissa. . . .ok lol
Elissa. . . .questions are good
RevRandy. . . .when we presume relationships between events without questioning them, we keep ourselves from being touch with a 1 to 1 ratio
Keep. . . .so are there any coincidence?
RevRandy. . . .infinite coincidences
Elissa. . . .sure
RevRandy. . . .but that doesn't mean that they will recur
Elissa. . . .and there are accidents and random events
Keep. . . .what is your definition of coincidences?
journey. . . .can you explain what you mean by that please?
RevRandy. . . .events that appear in a relationship without precedence or repetition
RevRandy. . . .a piece of a web of being that seem to arise out of nowhere
Keep. . . .I have a hard time with that. I think everything happens for a reason. Can you correct me?
Elissa. . . .remember, the meaning is in the larger picture and not the isolated details
Keep. . . .maybe thinking everything happens for a reason is soothing.
RevRandy. . . .keep - what I am saying is that we see things and perceive a coincidence - but what we see may not be the whole picture, nor necessarily the meaning in it
Keep. . . .gotcha
Elissa. . . .yep
journey. . . .i believe that all that occurs has been agreed upon prior to the event or on some level has already been accepted before the physical happening
Keep. . . .I do too journey
RevRandy. . . .but that implies time -
journey. . . .not necessarily time, just choices in the moment
Elissa. . . .perhaps the larger picture has been agreed on... or opportunities are offered to us that we accept or refuse
RevRandy. . . .but are they sequential or co-incidental?
journey. . . .like a person in passing can choose can to stay or go or hang on and recover..like that, but the incident is already a given as a window for learning
Elissa. . . .or perhaps the learning comes as a function of the choice, whatever the choice may be
RevRandy. . . .a big question - is the meaning in the event or in the perception of the event
Jackie. . . .one's perception
Keep. . . .perception
journey. . . .perception of the event, but nonetheless, the event leaves choice as to outcome
Elissa. . . .then it's not the event that's important, but your relationship with the event and whether or not it has meaning for you
RevRandy. . . .choices, opportunities
RevRandy. . . .but not certainties
Keep. . . .and everyone experiencing the event perception can be different and learn differently
Elissa. . . .yes
RevRandy. . . .yes
journey. . . .and will assimilate it to the path they are on in their own way
Elissa. . . .yes... and will learn from it or not
RevRandy. . . .and a great hindrance to learning is an insistence that everyone see the same meaning in an event
Keep. . . .That is what I believe Journey
journey. . . .ty
Keep. . . .LOL, that is a tough lesson for some, to understand everyone's perception is true to them.
Elissa. . . .we think so concretely, so we see the specific events as important
RevRandy. . . .and we like to think that agreement makes proof
Elissa. . . .keep, did you ever see an accident report? ask 10 people what happened and you will get 10 different answers
Keep. . . .I am thinking of a personal family issue going on here.
Keep. . . .not this group
RevRandy. . . .and in a family someone usually likes to demand a single interpretation of events
Keep. . . .LOL, I know what you mean Elissa
Elissa. . . .certainly not this group lol
Keep. . . .Very True RevR
RevRandy. . . .is this a group?
Keep. . . .a special group RevR
Keep. . . .wish more could find it
RevRandy. . . .the billboards on I-95 go up tomorrow :-)
b. . . .So do I, Keep*
Elissa. . . .it's not the numbers that count, but who is here
Keep. . . .LOL
Elissa. . . .lol randy
Jackie. . . .lol
Keep. . . .the # is growing
fang. . . .yea we're the best group ;) lol
Keep. . . .I meant the # looking for understanding and knowledge
Elissa. . . .it grows, it shrinks, it grows again lol
RevRandy. . . .I think I speak for E when I say that we are always surprised with the depth of consideration here - that has nothing to do with numbers in attendance
Elissa. . . .hmmm... i'm not surprised, but definitely happy about it :)
RevRandy. . . .we go away saying "Wow, what we heard tonight from all of them was awesome"
Elissa. . . .yes that's true... we always feel energized afterwards
RevRandy. . . .well, there will be the franchises
journey. . . .and we in attendance, say, "can't wait till next week", is very insightful always
journey. . . .even if late, :)
Keep. . . .:)
Elissa. . . .ty journey... still giving you those demerits though lol
TF88. . . .well, maybe I'm the only one, but I have trouble sleeping after these chats :)
Elissa. . . .'earth changes' ?
journey. . . .how come TF?
fang. . . .yes
Elissa. . . .well tf, come on over!
TF88. . . .my brain won't stop and I feel all jumbled :)
journey. . . .:)
Elissa. . . .we're jumblers?
journey. . . .i stay online afterwards, cuz of same stuff
TF88. . . .yep!
TF88. . . .it's like I can't sleep until I digest what's transpired.
Keep. . . .digesting new thoughts
RevRandy. . . .well, I see it is 11 pm - so, it is time for the Rainbow Song
Keep. . . .turning up sound
RevRandy. . . .and time to invite you all back for next Sunday.
Jackie. . . .goodnight everyone, see you next week
journey. . . .thank you
Elissa. . . .nite jackie
RevRandy. . . .nite jackie
Jackie. . . .nite all
[SOUND]
* Playing txplay20.mrc to #SpiritualPersistence with 50ms delay
Elissa. . . . 8,1!Elissa rainbow.mid 1,8 :o)
journey. . . .Rev and Elissa and Rikkity
Keep. . . .pleasant dreams
Elissa. . . .thanks to all of you for another great discussion! and some jumbling :)
TF88. . . .LOL
fang. . . .(((((revrandy, elissa, and rikkity)))))
TF88. . . .thanks elissa, randy and rikkity :)
Keep. . . .ty
RevRandy. . . .and nite to all from the Rev - who may not be able to sleep, but sure is beat: and E, I'll be home tomorrow afternoon
HarrietC. . . .good night all. Thank you for adding meaning to the "whys" of my life
Elissa. . . .glad you hung in here with us field marshall TF :)
b. . . .Goodnight, and thank you*
Elissa. . . .ok randy, i'll be here
journey. . . .TF :)
TF88. . . .me too Elissa...goodnight all
fang. . . .drive careful rev
RevRandy. . . .thanks to the Sergeant Major and the Field Marshall
fang. . . .or fly careful
RevRandy. . . .thanks fang
TF88. . . .night hanna
RevRandy. . . .drive - and away from interstates
fang. . . .night all
journey. . . .nite fang
fang. . . .well look out for those other drivers with cell phones ;)
Elissa. . . .i'll see you all next time, i hope :) nite and sleep peacefully (if you can lol)
journey. . . .I better step out for now, see ya
journey. . . .thank you very much
journey. . . .nite
Hanna. . . .Night everyone! :)\
Session Close: Sun Apr 02 23:06:48 2000