log060400

Session Start: Sun Jun 04 20:51:58 2000
*** Now talking in #SpiritualPersistence
*** Topic is ' 2,4~ Tonight's 2,7Topic: 2,8"Miracles" 2,9Sunday 2,11June 4 0,12at 9pm 2,13EDT ~ 0,2Hosted by Rev. Dr. Randolph Becker & Elissa Bishop Becker (and Rikkity). URL: www.spiritualpersistence.com '

RevRandy . . . hi everyone
RevRandy . . . we will get started in about five minutes (if I can get elissa back)
RevRandy . . . so sit tight -- choose a favorite chair here in SP
RevRandy . . . there are beverages on the back table, and snacks too
RevRandy . . . enjoy
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RevRandy . . . hello DEB and StF
StF . . . Hi room :)
DEB . . . hi rev randy
RevRandy . . . yeah - Elissa is back
babe . . . hi
StF . . . Hi Elissa
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t_kahle . . . Hi Elissa
Elissa . . . hey everybody!!!
Keepongoin . . . Hi Elissa and Deni
Deni . . . hi ")
t_kahle . . . Thank you for sending all the P to P e-mails. I love them!!
Elissa . . . hi t and babe and deni-face and jackie and stf!
Elissa . . . o good, t
StF . . . yes, me too, they also strike a chord :)
babe . . . hi
Elissa . . . tonight's gonna be great... my energy's crackling like crazy!
Elissa . . . Rikkity's here :)
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Deni . . . snap crackle POP!
Deni . . . hi Rikkity!
Elissa . . . i'm surprised... not lol
Keepongoin . . . Hi Rikkity
babe . . . feel like i know everyone
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Elissa . . . hi sharr! long time no see lol
RevRandy . . . hey - sharr!!!!!!
sharross . . . hahah yeh E !!
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Elissa . . . hey whitetiger! i missed you and hyper!
RevRandy . . . WT - welcome
WhiteTiger . . . Elissa :) we missed you folks too
WhiteTiger . . . thx RR :)
Elissa . . . i was thinking you're going to like tonight, wt
WhiteTiger . . . I like all of these sessions, Elissa ;)
Elissa . . . thanks wt :) me too lol... but i'm totally biased
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RevRandy . . . OKAY -
RevRandy . . . time to settle down, and settle in ...
RevRandy . . . welcome to Spiritual Persistence (often called SP)
Elissa . . . welcome!
RevRandy . . . a weekly gathering to explore, consider, discussion, ponder, and general be with one another and the spirits beyond
RevRandy . . . before we begin, do we have any new people here who like Elissa to give the quick tour
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babe . . . ok
RevRandy . . . Hanna?!?!?!?!?!
Elissa . . . babe is new
Elissa . . . hanna who?????
Hanna . . . yes, c'est moi! :)
Hanna . . . ohhhhh :P
Hanna . . . hey everyone! :)
Elissa . . . (((((((hanna))))))))))
babe . . . hi
Keepongoin . . . HI Hanna
RevRandy . . . hello - ok Elissa - better give the intro, since Hanna needs to know what we do here
Hypernoodle . . . Hi hanna :)
Keepongoin . . . LOL
Deni . . . rofl
Hanna . . . ya ya ok
sharross . . . hahah
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Elissa . . . RevRandy has been a Unitarian Universalist minister for
Elissa . . . almost 30 years, with a thriving congregation in
Elissa . . . Williamsburg, VA.
Elissa . . . I am a writer, medium, and published poet, and
Elissa . . . am currently a Masters student in Community Counseling
Elissa . . . at the College of William and Mary.
Elissa . . . My and RevRandy's daughter, Ericka (now known as Rikkity in spirit)
Elissa . . . died in an automobile collision with a drunk driver
Elissa . . . on August 20, 1995.
Elissa . . . She was 20 years old, and going into
Elissa . . . her junior year at Yale. 8 days after her death, RevRandy
Elissa . . . and I began communicating with her.
Elissa . . . Spiritual Persistence is Rikkity's name for that body of
Elissa . . . wisdom she has shared with us in the form of Points to
Elissa . . . Ponder.
Elissa . . . It is a unique vision of the nature of spiritual
Elissa . . . and physical existence, of the continuity between life
Elissa . . . and death, of connection, and of our place in the universe.
Elissa . . . And it is guidance we follow that has helped us to learn,
Elissa . . . to heal from grief, and to live better lives. We are here to
Elissa . . . share this wisdom with you and to explore what it means
Elissa . . . to you personally,
Elissa . . . as we learn from one another on this journey.
Elissa . . . If you have any further questions, please feel free to
Elissa . . . private message (pm) anyone with an "@" in front of their name
Elissa . . . or email Randy or me anytime.
Elissa . . . Thanks
Elissa . . . for coming...and again, welcome! Does anyone have any questions
Elissa . . . before we begin?
babe . . . why do i feel like I know u
Elissa . . . maybe you just feel at home here, babe
Elissa . . . or maybe you know me :)
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babe . . . maybe i am also psychic
Elissa . . . we all are... just some of us don't know it yet
Elissa . . . hey journey!
journey . . . Hi keep and elissa and All!
Hanna . . . i think I remember you 'liss
Elissa . . . hmmmm.... hanna... the name sounds familiar
RevRandy . . . Before we begin each session
RevRandy . . . we take a moment (and get quiet)
RevRandy . . . and offer a simple invocation
RevRandy . . . please join in the spirit of these words
RevRandy . . . May we be connected to all things loving
RevRandy . . . Protected from all things evil,
RevRandy . . . and guided in all ways gracious. Blessed Be
Hanna . . . Blessings to all
Elissa . . . amen~
sharross . . . Amen
Deni . . . Amen!
StF . . . amen
journey . . . Amen
Jackie . . . amen
TF88 . . . peace
babe . . . amen
Keepongoin . . . amen
WhiteTiger . . . aho
RevRandy . . . Now a few simple ground rules - if you want to pass notes to each other during the session - that's fine
RevRandy . . . just do it as pm to each other (lol)
RevRandy . . . And tonight we have a slightly different format
Elissa . . . and make sure your tray-tables are in the upright position
RevRandy . . . and locked
* WhiteTiger hates the takeoffs and landings
Elissa . . . lol
RevRandy . . . we will begin with a simple explanation of how we got to tonight's topic
RevRandy . . . and then it will flow from there
RevRandy . . . as Elissa and I each have chosen 2 Points to Ponder to illustrate what we think is the topic
RevRandy . . . or relevant to the topic
RevRandy . . . or close to the topic
Elissa . . . or not
RevRandy . . . or at least not too far afield from the topic
RevRandy . . . or in the same country as the topic
t_kahle . . . jeepers
Jackie . . . the suspense is killing me
WhiteTiger . . . lol
RevRandy . . . In one of our recent calls with Rikkity, she pointed to a quotation used in a book I am reading
Elissa . . . and the topic is...........
RevRandy . . . about Emerson
RevRandy . . . but the quotation is not from Emerson (as far as I can tell)
RevRandy . . . but from T. S. Eliot.
RevRandy . . . 0,1"We have a mental habit which makes it easier for us to explain the miraculous in natural terms
RevRandy . . . 0,1than to explain the natural in miraculous." T.S. Eliot
WhiteTiger . . . hmmmmm
RevRandy . . . And she (Rikkity) gave us the directions about the 2 PtoPs we were to select and discuss
RevRandy . . . Now today, Rikkity said some further things about this topic:
RevRandy . . . 0,2"We don't do much reduction of the miraculous to the ordinary... To force
RevRandy . . . 0,2any experience into a single system of understanding based on our limited
RevRandy . . . 0,2perceptive abilities is to deny the majesty of creation. You know--and mark
RevRandy . . . 0,2this well--you don't have to choose between the miraculous and the natural.
RevRandy . . . 0,2Scientific explanations can coexist with spiritual ones, if you think of
RevRandy . . . 0,2science and spirit differently than is now usually the case. And I don't
RevRandy . . . 0,2mean using pseudo-science to prove spirit nor a meta-spirituality to embrace
RevRandy . . . 0,2science, but something more. And that's something you can discuss tonight
RevRandy . . . 0,2and get ideas of what that would look like. Ponder that together."
RevRandy . . . 0,2(6/4/2000)
Elissa . . . and she will have more to say about that later... in person, so to speak :)
RevRandy . . . So, there was the assignment - simple - eh?
Elissa . . . sure
Elissa . . . no problem
RevRandy . . . (yep - she has promised (threatened) to be here tonight)
WhiteTiger . . . yup... simple :)
StF . . . :)
RevRandy . . . So, with those two pieces in mind, I offer a Point to Ponder and then some of my own reflections on it:
RevRandy . . . 0,2"About probable realities. It's a math concept.
RevRandy . . . 0,2At any point in time there are infinite probable realities.
RevRandy . . . 0,2We just know one.
RevRandy . . . 0,2Here's an image: a point of light... just one, not thousands.
RevRandy . . . 0,2From that point the light goes out in many directions.
RevRandy . . . 0,2One probable reality is that it lights this page; another is that it is seen from Mars;
RevRandy . . . 0,2another is that it is swallowed up by a black hole, etc.
RevRandy . . . 0,2All true, all equally probable; but in your existence you follow just one strand of possibilities.
RevRandy . . . 0,2Sequence, not time. You see ABCDE, but there also could be a ZYXW or a REDQ or a NJHG or a ASKU5.
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RevRandy . . . 0,2All sequences, all equally possible and probable--even if the sequence is ABCDE.
RevRandy . . . 0,2It's not about time. We have probable selves.
RevRandy . . . 0,2
RevRandy . . . 0,2"Here's another one.
RevRandy . . . 0,2In numbers you have evens and odds; all numbers are one or the other, in your thinking.
RevRandy . . . 0,2But maybe there are others, which your thinking doesn't know, but which are just as real.
RevRandy . . . 0,2Just because you have ten fingers doesn't make ten the base of all realities.
RevRandy . . . 0,2It adds to All That Is--not personal, but collective.
RevRandy . . . 0,2And some day, so to speak, we may unite with a parallel self that took a road not taken by us.
RevRandy . . . 0,2We move in realities with many of 'us'es but we don't notice because most don't look like us physically, only spiritually.
RevRandy . . . 0,2Ponder that...or not." (4/20/99 - B#29)
Elissa . . . hey sherman :)
RevRandy . . . Now, why did I choose this one?
RevRandy . . . especially to illustrate this concept
Sherman . . . Hi Everyone
RevRandy . . . I think it is the notion that there can be many different paths, all equally probable
RevRandy . . . that flow from any point in our spiritual existence.
RevRandy . . . And although they may appear to be different paths, they are all inter-related
RevRandy . . . and some different ones, in different realities, may take us to the same places
RevRandy . . . So, while we like to think that we live in a land of set realities and scientific certainty
RevRandy . . . (or at least are told that is the way it is)
RevRandy . . . in fact there are many sets of facts
RevRandy . . . which therefore means
RevRandy . . . there are many sets of natural things
RevRandy . . . each part of some larger reality
RevRandy . . . all of which are equally true
RevRandy . . . in the larger sense
RevRandy . . . and what we perceive to be miraculous is often the intersection of more than one of the strands of reality
RevRandy . . . or a glimpse into a wider perspective
RevRandy . . . and if we take that glimpse and pin it down with the language
RevRandy . . . imges
RevRandy . . . theories
RevRandy . . . of only one of the paths, one of the strands of our multi-faceted existence
RevRandy . . . then we rob the miraculous of its very nature ... of transcending any specific we now understand
RevRandy . . . I see this particularly in the reference to having ten fingers .... and therefore the assumption of all math being based on 10
RevRandy . . . For centuries, when mathematicians found problems that exceeded the limits of this thinking in 10s they reduced the problem so it was recast in 10s
RevRandy . . . and then solved a completely different problem.
RevRandy . . . If we continued to think in terms of 10 as an absolute way of thinking in math, we would not have these computers to work on which rely on a base 2 system
RevRandy . . . so, in similar way, what would (or do) we deny ourselves, by limiting spiritual possibilities to those which fit
RevRandy . . . already discovered natural scientific understandings?
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RevRandy . . . I keep pondering that.
RevRandy . . . But, what do you see in this?
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Elissa . . . very cool randy :)
RevRandy . . . ty
StF . . . Probable self...and parallel self...
WhiteTiger . . . sounds like (un)common sense to me :)
journey . . . well that stretches the mind as usual
journey . . . lol
t_kahle . . . I think this one might be over my head
RevRandy . . . get out the rack - and stretch that mind
StF . . . I often wake up from dreams that are ME but the ME is different from this me
Elissa . . . mind stretching... does that burn any calories?
journey . . . I wish :)
babe . . . in life we all see things differently
RevRandy . . . StF - what does it feel like to you
t_kahle . . . Yet, I'm really interested because I am a teacher of science.
Elissa . . . t, it's to ponder, not to get completely
StF . . . I know it is ME, this same physical person...but she has different attitudes
StF . . . different ways of speaking..
WhiteTiger . . . StF- sounds like ya know a more "basic" or "essential" you in yer dreams... and have trouble reconciling it with the here/now mask/persona
StF . . . maybe...
journey . . . but to me this makes me think of the saying All time is now and we experience many facets of now
RevRandy . . . t_ - maybe this will help put it in perspective - as long as everything was pictured with the earth at the center of the universe, no one could see the other miraculous possibilities
t_kahle . . . thank Elissa, I keep trying to UNDERSTAND everything completely and right now!! LOL
t_kahle . . . thank you
Elissa . . . t that's something many of us have had to unlearn
TF88 . . . that's very interesting. The numbers portion brings to mind the differences between western and eastern music scales. Two different paths, both just as real.
RevRandy . . . TF - yes - I like that ... good example
StF . . . Math & music are 2 of the "laws" of the universe, yes?
RevRandy . . . and can we envision a way in which they are not separate?
RevRandy . . . is math a "law" or an experience? what would make it a "law"?
Elissa . . . to envision a connection we need to widen our perspective
WhiteTiger . . . I was fascinated with the science/miraculous dichotomy... seems to me it's ALL miraculous, and science is just a tool we use cause it works and gives us a false sense of understanding
RevRandy . . . aha
Elissa . . . is it false, or is it just part of the whole
StF . . . Seems like I remember reading a book by the man who wrote Jonathan L. Seagull where he talked about meeting a different self that existed in a parallel universe, because he had made different choices
Deni . . . isn't that Dif self actually just other aspects of the self?
WhiteTiger . . . good post, Deni :)
journey . . . well, if we have all these different layers to our aura then perhaps each layer is unique in its experiences as well
RevRandy . . . but they are all our experiences - we just have not learned to integrate them
Elissa . . . the gaps are in our perception, not in reality
Elissa . . . hahaha but of course perception IS reality
WhiteTiger . . . seems likely, Journey... the carburetor doesn't experience the trip to the market the same as the tires or doors on the car
journey . . . yes, i agree, that is why perhaps dreams are so important
StF . . . yes, like we are all the same, just viewing life, etc from a different "place"
Elissa . . . right stf
RevRandy . . . On this thread of about not getting it all yet .... when Einsteinian physics replaced Newtonian, it was not because Newton was wrong, only that his theories only worked in a limit sphere
RevRandy . . . and someday relativity will be seen as horribly limited .... and yet still true in its own way
Deni . . . I can't WAIT for that!! :)
RevRandy . . . it is not about denying something else, but incorporating into ever more inclusive, complex understandings
Elissa . . . randy's working on it deni lol
RevRandy . . . shhhhhhh
WhiteTiger . . . and the errors in relativity will be admitted, rather than covered up, just as the fallacies of newtonian physics have come to be
Deni . . . lol
Elissa . . . oooo wt that's a key to growth isn't it
RevRandy . . . they will be admitted (unless organized religion has something to do with it -- then expect centuries of equivocation)
StF . . . and the fact that there are no errors, only different ways of viewing... and not Knowing yet
Elissa . . . yep
WhiteTiger . . . sure seems to be ;) can't grasp the new when ya got both grubby paws clenched on the old ;)
Elissa . . . yes, gotta let go of the old but not try to destroy it
RevRandy . . . and that is, for me, what it means to take the miraculous and describe it away with limited terms
babe . . . every second brings a new reality
StF . . . yes, why do ppl seem to think miracles only occurred in the past?
StF . . . Only in old books, like the Bible...
WhiteTiger . . . "destruction", like "creation" is one of those fictitious abilities we imagine ourselves to have, imo
RevRandy . . . So, Elissa - how about your first PtoP?
Elissa . . . a different slant on the topic, but this one allows for many different slants
Elissa . . . 0,12"Everybody is always here, but I can only sense the
Elissa . . . 0,12ones who have a role to play with me right now.
Elissa . . . 0,12If and when I need to learn from them, they will
Elissa . . . 0,12be here for me. It's the same in life. People appear
Elissa . . . 0,12to come and go from your life but they are always
Elissa . . . 0,12there--it is your sensing that comes and goes.
Elissa . . . 0,12That's why sometimes you need someone and it seems
Elissa . . . 0,12like they suddenly appear across a crowded room.
Elissa . . . 0,12"You create your own reality but the universe provides
Elissa . . . 0,12the materials. Focus or sense or attend or notice or
Elissa . . . 0,12separate from background or give credence to or
Elissa . . . 0,12envision or let happen. If you paid attention to that
Elissa . . . 0,12list you would see that here there is no substantial
Elissa . . . 0,12difference between religious concepts like prayer or
Elissa . . . 0,12surrender or intense meditation or yoga empty mind
Elissa . . . 0,12or humanistic intense reason or Gestalt or
Elissa . . . 0,12transactional analysis. All can be paths to
Elissa . . . 0,12relationships we seek or need, or that seek or need us.
Elissa . . . 0,12"If you truly need to relate only you can keep it from
Elissa . . . 0,12happening. And if you don't want to relate no path
Elissa . . . 0,12can take you there. And if you want to relate any and
Elissa . . . 0,12every path will take you there." (10/8/95 - I#1)
Elissa . . . this is meaningful to me in terms of seeing the miraculous in
Elissa . . . the ordinary because it was this ptop that opened my
Elissa . . . perspective...
Elissa . . . after hearing this i began to allow for the
Elissa . . . possibility of focusing on what i sought or needed, and
Elissa . . . noticing who or what sought or needed me... i began to
Elissa . . . find that if i needed to speak to someone i could simply
Elissa . . . wait and they would appear--in a supermarket, a movie
Elissa . . . theater, a restaurant, etc...
Elissa . . . i also found that those who
Elissa . . . needed something from me began to seek to me out more
Elissa . . . frequently once i allowed myself to focus in that way. my
Elissa . . . days became increasingly filled with little miracles, until
Elissa . . . now i take them for granted... it's just life!
Elissa . . . it doesn't
Elissa . . . involve conscious effort at manifestation or positive
Elissa . . . thinking or affirmations...
Elissa . . . it simply is the way things
Elissa . . . work :)
WhiteTiger . . . good PtoP :) one point to contend though... imo, we don't create squat, including our own experiences... any more than ordering chateaubriand from the menu makes one a cordon bleu chef
Sherman . . . That's so true Elissa. Sometimes we just have to pay attention to the signs.
RevRandy . . . but maybe we create the menu?
RevRandy . . . (like that ebb)
Elissa . . . create in the sense that we focus on and open to what is there, wt...
Elissa . . . and in the process of doing that we change what is there by interacting with it
Elissa . . . (i believe at the moment)
WhiteTiger . . . I don't think so RR... in my understanding creation is the sole and monopolistic baliwick of one and only one
StF . . . Like you dont need to "become" spiritual to know truth...
StF . . . Truth is...and is available to you where ever you are
WhiteTiger . . . This is a point
WhiteTiger . . . Tiger and I debate heartily (hypernoodle)
Elissa . . . yes stf
StF . . . It will appear in the form you need...your type of miracle
TF88 . . . so to create is to discover
Elissa . . . if we are part of that One, then we are cocreators... otherwise we're talking about a separation
RevRandy . . . but I do not perceive myself as separate from all-that-is, so then I am co-creator
StF . . . You only need recognition and acceptance
Elissa . . . lol randy
WhiteTiger . . . agree elissa... I just prefer the more precise term "choose" ;)
RevRandy . . . hey , E, we agree
StF . . . thank God! lol
RevRandy . . . lol
StF . . . makes for a smoother household, RR!
RevRandy . . . it does .... but sometimes less fun
Elissa . . . ok wt :) but choose implies it is independent of a context
t_kahle . . . What exactly does it mean "people tend to come and go from our lives"? (someone leaves your house because it's time to go home?) or they don't want to be near you at all anymore? or they die?
t_kahle . . . Or am I being too literal again??? LOL
Elissa . . . lol randy
WhiteTiger . . . mmmmm... can't quite get that one down, RR... "co-creator" implies a certain minimal amount of parity... and that is the one thing I have never seen a glimmer of, personally
RevRandy . . . t_ there were some people I needed to know at one point in my life ... and then they faded as we each did not need each other in the same way
RevRandy . . . WT - parity, or participation?
StF . . . T...someone sent me an email the other day..saying some ppl are with you for a "Season" some for a "Reason"
WhiteTiger . . . I see an implication of parity in the term... but then, I'm weird :)
StF . . . like RR just said, when the season or reason is over, the relationship moved on
TF88 . . . what does parity mean please?
Elissa . . . and some people are just there when we need them
RevRandy . . . it means an equality -
TF88 . . . thank you
RevRandy . . . being in balance
WhiteTiger . . . or more precisely, an equivalence
StF . . . yes...:) it said that too :)
Elissa . . . i like weird, wt lol what does that make me?
WhiteTiger . . . a fellow traveler? *innocent look*
Elissa . . . good answer!!!
Elissa . . . so, does this make sense to you guys in terms of miracles?
WhiteTiger . . . lol... hyper is puffing up like a blowfish... I'm gonna give her the keyboard before she explodes ;)
StF . . . So, enjoy your life, the ppl and experiences that come into it..and dont sweat it
RevRandy . . . WT - pose a question for you -- Jose and Maria work in a factory owned by Luigi -- Luigi designed a certain product, but now Jose and Maria get the raw materials and makes the product -- who is the creator of the product when I get one from the factory?
Elissa . . . manuel
RevRandy . . . ROFLMAO
StF . . . And welcome miracles!
Deni . . . every moment is a miracle...some moments are more miraculous than others
babe . . . what is ppl
StF . . . people
babe . . . thanks
journey . . . a parent gives birth to a child and although the child cannot give birth to the parent, still they do give birth to their child
journey . . . both creators
RevRandy . . . I keep finding that when I most need a "miracle" even when I don't know it, one comes
StF . . . And if you need a miracle, ask for it, it will come
TF88 . . . yes, but do you wait for the miracle to come or do you become involved in bringing the miracle?
Elissa . . . ah TF, will it be there if we don't see it :)
Elissa . . . the old tree falling the forest thingie
StF . . . the point is in the recognition and understanding for the future
RevRandy . . . if miracles are things beyond explanations at our present level of knowing, then, yes, miracles abound
StF . . . I consider aspirin a miracle...
StF . . . I dont know how it works...but it works
Deni . . . Elissa IS the miracle!
sharross . . . :)
RevRandy . . . amen
t_kahle . . . Most of the miracles that I experience, happen only to me. If I try to put any into words to explain, ppl think I'm a little loose.
*** WhiteTiger is now known as Hypernoodle
journey . . . our perception dictates the "miracle" i believe
RevRandy . . . T_ - that is the way with mystical experiences
Deni . . . hi hypernoodle!
Elissa . . . o sure... deni you looking for a raise?
Hypernoodle . . . HI Deni :)
Deni . . . yeah E!
Hanna . . . lol
Elissa . . . ok you got it!!!!! lol
Deni . . . SWEEEEEEEEEEEET!
Elissa . . . i'll give you hanna's share
Deni . . . see what miracles can bring!
RevRandy . . . well, folks, talking about miracles -- it is time for a short break .... for about 9 minutes, and then back with .....
Elissa . . . da moo :)
Elissa . . . bbbbbbbbrrrrrrrreeeeeeeeeaaaaaaaaaakkkkkkkkkkkkkk
t_kahle . . . I don't tend to hang out with ppl who are as open-minded as I am. Makes for problems.
RevRandy . . . so talk among yourself or yourselves, or your elves
*** Elissa is now known as Elissabrb
t_kahle . . . open-minded, or empty headed.
t_kahle . . . I'm not sure which.
RevRandy . . . no put downs (even self put downs, please)
Hypernoodle . . . Guess it depends on how open minded you are and whether your brains fell out huh?
journey . . . tkahle, i kept much to myself till i knew what i really believed
StF . . . yes, t...I enjoy your ideas :)
t_kahle . . . I didn't mean empty headed as a put down.
Hypernoodle . . . :)
t_kahle . . . Sorry if I offended.
Deni . . . hey I'm still trying to figure out what I believe
RevRandy . . . but the opposite is being so closed minded that one does not even accept oneself - and there are plenty of them folks
Hypernoodle . . . yep
StF . . . try writing it down, deni
journey . . . that is why my nick is journey...still journeying inside and out, lol (t_kahle) I guess I mean more like an empty "wrung out" sponge.
Hypernoodle . . . I like to listen and wait for words that indicate I can talk to someone without being taken as totally nutso
Deni . . . thats cool journey!
t_kahle . . . I want to know everything - now!
RevRandy . . . ok folks - see if you can find your seats again
*** Elissabrb is now known as Elissa-Rikkity
Elissa-Rikkity . . . hi hi hi
Elissa-Rikkity . . . it's me
RevRandy . . . hello mooooo
Deni . . . hiya Rik
Elissa-Rikkity . . . hi
StF . . . wb elissa...and Hi rikkity
TF88 . . . :)
Hypernoodle . . . :)
journey . . . hi and welcome Rikkity
Elissa-Rikkity . . . yes, you are all once again graced by my presence, haha
Elissa-Rikkity . . . except for hanna :P
Elissa-Rikkity . . . so look, and listen, and ponder well.
Elissa-Rikkity . . . think about gears.
Elissa-Rikkity . . . if you think about science and spirituality as two separate gears
Elissa-Rikkity . . . you will not see a machine that runs smoothly toward the future
Elissa-Rikkity . . . in this millennium.
Elissa-Rikkity . . . but think of the gears this way:
Elissa-Rikkity . . . each of them has protrusions and insertion points...
Elissa-Rikkity . . . not gaps, not holes, not empty spaces
Elissa-Rikkity . . . but insertions points... edges,
Elissa-Rikkity . . . growing edges, if you will.
Elissa-Rikkity . . . the protrusions are that which is meaningful to each,
Elissa-Rikkity . . . the edges are where they may be able to find connection.
Elissa-Rikkity . . . without lubrication
Elissa-Rikkity . . . they will grate when they meet...
Elissa-Rikkity . . . they will feel scratchy and do damage to each other
Elissa-Rikkity . . . and become less sure of the meaning they have found.
Elissa-Rikkity . . . this is not good.
Hypernoodle . . . lmao... and mutual motion (progress) is a matter of the repeated collisions of the protrusions on the two gears
Elissa-Rikkity . . . the idea is not to degrade, but to upgrade.
Elissa-Rikkity . . . so, with a bit of oil of olay...
Elissa-Rikkity . . . no, i mean oil for lubrication--
Elissa-Rikkity . . . and that oil is understanding and awareness and openness
*** Hypernoodle is now known as WhiteTiger
Elissa-Rikkity . . . and possibility--those growing edges can meet and mesh and meld.
Elissa-Rikkity . . . the meaning that science has found and the meaning
Elissa-Rikkity . . . that spirituality has found are not mutually exclusive.
Elissa-Rikkity . . . there are edges that are about a stuck point
Elissa-Rikkity . . . or a confusion or something that looks
Elissa-Rikkity . . . incongruous but is not and so
Elissa-Rikkity . . . the frustration makes each side defend its meaning
Elissa-Rikkity . . . and discount the other’s value.
Elissa-Rikkity . . . your assignment is to look for where the edges meet,
Elissa-Rikkity . . . look for where the insertions points can be filled
Elissa-Rikkity . . . with meaning,
Elissa-Rikkity . . . look for where the gears can come together
Elissa-Rikkity . . . and that combining will be what drives
Elissa-Rikkity . . . the new paradigm.
Elissa-Rikkity . . . drive the new Chevrolet Paradigm,
Elissa-Rikkity . . . now $400 off if you are graduating in the next 6 months, hahaha.
Elissa-Rikkity . . . so, that's it. go and look for the connections
WhiteTiger . . . rich corinthian leather?
Elissa-Rikkity . . . that will be fueled with your energy--
Elissa-Rikkity . . . and i mean YOUR energy.
Elissa-Rikkity . . . good night.
*** Elissa-Rikkity is now known as Elissa
Hanna . . . Thank you rikkity! :)
journey . . . ty Rikkity
RevRandy . . . ty moo
Deni . . . thanks and goodnight
WhiteTiger . . . interesting :)
Elissa . . . i'm not back yet
babe . . . thanks
Deni . . . need help E?
RevRandy . . . that last little bit made me realise that the Chevrolet Paradigm will be a manual shift, not automatic ....
WhiteTiger . . . lol
RevRandy . . . it won't just happen - we will have to do the work, and make the choices, and sense the road we are on
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t_kahle . . . I am so confused
RevRandy . . . T_ how so?
t_kahle . . . what just happened?
Elissa . . . thanks deni-face... i'm going outside for a minute :)
journey . . . to me it seems she speaks of walking in awareness between who we are and those that we feel are not spiritual
RevRandy . . . what just happened was that Rikkity spoke through Elissa -
RevRandy . . . a live PtoP so to speak
t_kahle . . . alrighty then
journey . . . she is awesome
RevRandy . . . interesting images of the gears ----
RevRandy . . . she is going outside for a moment or two to cool down ...
RevRandy . . . and when she is back, maybe we can discuss that ...
RevRandy . . . until then, let me share another of the points I had chosen about miracles. so to speak
RevRandy . . . 0,2 0,2"Angels are figments of imagination...
RevRandy . . . 0,2or symbols of the interactive nature of the relationship between the temporal physical realm
RevRandy . . . 0,2and the eternal manifestation of a spiritual or psychic, I guess...so they're present within existence.
RevRandy . . . 0,2Some say 'guides,' some say 'spirits,' the Church copyrighted 'angels.'
RevRandy . . . 0,2
RevRandy . . . 0,2"There has always been a need to see some form of the divine that could literally touch the human.
RevRandy . . . 0,2But hey, if you sense the divine within you, you don't need it.
RevRandy . . . 0,2Rather than divine messengers and protectors, we really have divine companions--us and you and them and et al.
RevRandy . . . 0,2Ahhh, just call me angel of the morning.
RevRandy . . . 0,2"Angels are not separate.
RevRandy . . . 0,2There is only one reality, but it has many levels of complexity.
RevRandy . . . 0,2If we had beings who had never been human, then we would have more than one reality.
RevRandy . . . 0,2And if we have two, why not three...or 87. And some of the 87 could be so-called 'evil,' which is not true.
RevRandy . . . 0,2Think of it: a tea-lady reality, unable to sustain itself. No customers.
RevRandy . . . 0,2"You see, in this cleverly and pathetically simple way,
RevRandy . . . 0,2I have masterfully demonstrated that there is either a single reality of great complexity,
RevRandy . . . 0,2or an infinite number of incomplete and unstable realities.
RevRandy . . . 0,2And which do you think can sustain itself. Obviously, the 'one.'
RevRandy . . . 0,2And its elves and fairies and gnomes... garden gnomes. But not trolls.
RevRandy . . .
RevRandy . . . 0,2"Here's a thought:
RevRandy . . . 0,2if elves and gnomes don't really exist, how come every culture has some form of this being in its mythology.
RevRandy . . . 0,2Because it's symbolic of smaller--i.e., less complex--spiritual beings.
RevRandy . . . 0,2So see, we know what we don't think we know.
RevRandy . . . 0,2And angels symbolize more complex spiritual beings--i.e, God.
RevRandy . . . 0,2And we're stuck here in the middle." (9/11/98 - I#25)
RevRandy . . . Why did I pick this --
RevRandy . . . welllllllll
RevRandy . . . it is the middle portion -
RevRandy . . . in which she speaks about having proven
RevRandy . . . that either there is a single reality of great complexity
RevRandy . . . or an infinite number of incomplete and unstable realities.
RevRandy . . . And then she rhetorically asks which can sustain itself, and the answer would be the single reality
RevRandy . . . now, if there is only a single reality, in which we exist in many ways, with many different planes,
RevRandy . . . and all that seems separate is really part of a larger, not-yet-understood whole
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WhiteTiger . . . RR- to answer your earlier Q... the creator is the only one that creates... the very concept of the thing made in Luigi's factory was set out as an inherent possibility in the structure of this place... all Luigi and Co did was discover what always was, and bring what they can perceive of it's aspect to the fore in 3D (imo)
RevRandy . . . miracles fall into the area in which
RevRandy . . . the presently known and the future known become intertwined
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RevRandy . . . and to reduce that connection back into the definitions of only a piece, a part of the whole, would be to rob it of its essence.
RevRandy . . . or least that is what I see. How about you?
Elissa . . . i'm back... sort of lol
RevRandy . . . did this speak to you in any way
TF88 . . . wb elissa
Elissa . . . ty tf :)
RevRandy . . . or now that Elissa is back, want to talk about what Rikkity had to say?
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WhiteTiger . . . mmmm... seems to me we have no choice but to rob everything of some part of it's essence, RR... so far I haven't seen anyone who can hold all aspects of even so much as a single grain of sand... we dip our thimbles in the ocean, then show off our "sea" we have captured, it seems to me
RevRandy . . . WT - yes, so far, but what is yet to come ??????
Elissa . . . wt i think the point is to try--to focus forward, not to get it all... not yet
WhiteTiger . . . the next baby step ;) at this point it seems a bit foolish to me to be worrying about the hi jump ;)
RevRandy . . . and as for the factory, if all Luigi and company did was detect what was already there, then where did the idea come from for the "Creator" to place it there
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RevRandy . . . was there a super-creator?
WhiteTiger . . . agree elissa... I'm just being a gadfly tonight, I guess
TF88 . . . working toward and worrying about are two different things
RevRandy . . . eye on the prize ---
RevRandy . . . even if I don't think I will win it this time around
Elissa . . . that's ok, wt... we need to hear all those random thoughts out there :)
Elissa . . . true tf... very different
Elissa . . . hey fang!
t_kahle . . . So, is there a super creator? Or where we all there working together?
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RevRandy . . . there is a super creator, and we is it
RevRandy . . . kybear, hi!
t_kahle . . . we is it?
t_kahle . . . us guys?
Hanna . . . disappointed tkahle?
RevRandy . . . why must we see creation (in the big sense) as separate from us?
Hanna . . . lol
Kybear . . . well hello all (((((((BIG ROOM HUG)))))
Elissa . . . hey ky you're late!
WhiteTiger . . . mmmmm... one source, and the idea of something preceding it is self contradictory, it seems to me
Starseed . . . :))
journey . . . i am just thinking that rikkity's point was not so much scientific as it was finding wholeness now
journey . . . wholeness within
RevRandy . . . WT - unless one thinks of circles, not lines
WhiteTiger . . . ack! please! not zen... LOL
RevRandy . . . but what if the first is last, and so the circle is drawn, and the created is the creator,
t_kahle . . . Then why does this creator have so many unanswered questions?
RevRandy . . . then the circle is broken when we are encouraged to stop in any one point of the movement
Hanna . . . I agree journey.. and also that the scientific and spiritual are moving closer together.. and if we don't allow for the merging (lubrication).. they are going to have a hard time working together.
WhiteTiger . . . circles and lines are defined by motion... and it seems to me that defining the creator in terms of our limited understanding of what is, is kinda like the anthropomorphism of most religions
RevRandy . . . WT - I agree, so I will not personify, but only speak of my sense that I am never separate from "it", and it cannot exist without me
WhiteTiger . . . what is, is... that we are so limited we must perceive it in sequential slices (of time) just points out that we ain't up to the job of standing with the creator, imo
t_kahle . . . you're a regular walking thesaurus there WT. Most of this is soooooo over my head.
journey . . . yes hanna, but science aside..not caring one way or the other scientifically,.her point spoke to me of people who we feel are not spiritual in general and the meshing of ideas, speaking together and such
Hanna . . . yes journey.. nicely put :)
journey . . . lol tkahle
Starseed . . . and within the circle we are all connected
t_kahle . . . Or maybe I'm just tired.
RevRandy . . . yes, all connected
WhiteTiger . . . or I'm just wordy LOL
RevRandy . . . well, I know that elissa has one more point to share!
Elissa . . . yes and i'm glad all i have to do is cut and paste at this point lol
Elissa . . . ok, here goes:
Elissa . . . 0,13"It's not a dichotomy. There is no separation
Elissa . . . 0,13between the divine and the other. In most perceptions,
Elissa . . . 0,13one strives to become one with the divine or the
Elissa . . . 0,13universe or whatever. But this is how I see it:
Elissa . . . 0,13you and I and all will become the divine because
Elissa . . . 0,13we are all already part of it--it is in us and we
Elissa . . . 0,13are in it. No separation; no hierarchy.
Elissa . . . 0,13"A physical parallel: hydrogen is an element, water
Elissa . . . 0,13is a compound (see, I did pay attention in class),
Elissa . . . 0,13and polymagnesium carbohydrate is a complex compound,
Elissa . . . 0,13and a house is made of thousands of compounds,
Elissa . . . 0,13and the universe has many houses. But which is real.
Elissa . . . 0,13All of them are as real as the next, and all are part
Elissa . . . 0,13of the universe. Complexity is not a measure but a
Elissa . . . 0,13description.
Elissa . . . 0,13"So with entities, is the level before this less valid.
Elissa . . . 0,13Is the level to come more valid. In spiritual terms,
Elissa . . . 0,13no. Everything is! And everything will be! It has
Elissa . . . 0,13always been! How it relates and forms in ever-more
Elissa . . . 0,13complex ways is the process of all being; and someday--
Elissa . . . 0,13or maybe night--it will all be unified and that is what
Elissa . . . 0,13some would call the divine, All That Is in one being.
Elissa . . . 0,13But we are never separate from it. Nothing exists
Elissa . . . 0,13outside it, or maybe not. Maybe there are other
Elissa . . . 0,13realities, all moving toward their own unities; and
Elissa . . . 0,13when each and all are unified the process repeats all
Elissa . . . 0,13over on a grander scale. But All That Is is! It's not!
Elissa . . . 0,13about any individual act of communion with the divine;
Elissa . . . 0,13it's about infinite acts of union within the divine.
Elissa . . . 0,13Save yourself and miss the whole shabang.
Elissa . . . 0,13"Those who seek their own fulfillment simply delay the
Elissa . . . 0,13larger processes. It's not about differentiation;
Elissa . . . 0,13it's about integration, connection. Together we can
Elissa . . . 0,13move on, separately we are pitiful. So the task is not
Elissa . . . 0,13to seek the divine and find a personal connection, it
Elissa . . . 0,13is to feel the divine and make eternal connection with
Elissa . . . 0,13others. You can't build if you don't get together.
Elissa . . . 0,13That's all." (12/2/96 - V#24)
Elissa . . . it's not a dichotomy... you and i are already a part of
Elissa . . . the divine. we are within it and it is within us and
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Elissa . . . all the wonder we see in nature is a function of the
Elissa . . . interaction between us and the universe... that is an
Elissa . . . awesome thought to me! it's too big to comprehend
Elissa . . . completely. but when i see a red sun setting in a
Elissa . . . pink-gold sky or a magnificent rainbow or the light
Elissa . . . in a baby's new eyes, when my breath catches for a
Elissa . . . moment in awe and wonder, i also get a glimpse of the
Elissa . . . miracle of my soul... of all of our souls. and in those
Elissa . . . moments the ordinary becomes miraculous and the
Elissa . . . miraculous ordinary... and i sense my connection to
Elissa . . . All That Is because i sense that i am not perfect or
Elissa . . . complete, but contain the potential to be whole and
Elissa . . . grander than i know... the miraculous paradox that i
Elissa . . . will be more than i am when i become who i am.
Elissa . . . and that's all i have to say about that :)
journey . . . that was beautiful!
Elissa . . . thank you journey
journey . . . yw
Starseed . . . sounds as if you are referring to living fully in the now
RevRandy . . . awesome
Elissa . . . in the now and into the future, star
RevRandy . . . and if we contain the future possibility, potential, then to explain it in past terms is to deny that potential
Starseed . . . but if we live within the circular time we will cocreate that reality
WhiteTiger . . . can ya expand on that a bit, RR?
RevRandy . . . if I understand what E is speaking of, and Rikkity too, we hold within us not only what has been but the potential for what will be.
RevRandy . . . As we use the metaphors, images, theories, facts of the past to describe our present experiences
RevRandy . . . we tie ourselves to that past, rather than bid us proceed into the future
RevRandy . . . a future where we do not yet have the words, metaphors, images, theories, or facts to describe
WhiteTiger . . . ok... I can agree with that, if "within us" doesn't mean the cross section of us that is in the split instant of "now" that we perceive
RevRandy . . . only the emerging experience
RevRandy . . . I speak holistically of all that we each are, as a complex yet still becoming more complex spiritual entity
WhiteTiger . . . ahhhh... we're talking apples and oranges I think... I'll shut up, cause I'm on a sidetrip, it looks like
RevRandy . . . enjoy the OJ
t_kahle . . . Oh dear, my sponge is full, I think I'd better get it's container to the pillow before it starts leaking.
WhiteTiger . . . lol
* TF88 tiptoes out...night and thanks
Elissa . . . lol t!
*** TF88 has quit IRC (QUIT: With wisdom comes calmness. With calmness comes wisdom. )
Elissa . . . wt i want to respond to what you said but i can't lol
RevRandy . . . the floor is open!
WhiteTiger . . . that's ok elissa :) I'm in an odd mood tonight... seem to be rather fractious
Elissa . . . i noticed lol
Elissa . . . need oil?
fang . . . can i ask a question?
Elissa . . . sure fang... always!
fang . . . i put the blind rottweiler down a couple of weeks ago, do you think god will be angry with me?
Starseed . . . that was humane fang
Elissa . . . o fang, god doesn't get angry... what matters is are you angry with yourself?
RevRandy . . . no fang - that was a caring thing to do
fang . . . i felt bad that i couldn't give her the kind of life i would have liked to
Elissa . . . Rikkity says anger is an attempt to get energy when we feel powerless... god doesn't feel powerless
Starseed . . . (((((((fang))))))))))
fang . . . i feel powerless alot
WhiteTiger . . . I like that description of anger :)
fang . . . lost and powerless, helpless and hopeless
RevRandy . . . ((((((((((((fang))))))))))
fang . . . sounds like a song lol
Elissa . . . fang you need to come to terms with that, but remember that you had limited control over what happened... it's not your fault
Elissa . . . a country song lol
*** WhiteTiger is now known as Hypernoodle
Starseed . . . lol
Elissa . . . fang, how about this: write her a letter and tell her about all your feelings
fang . . . yea too bad i'm not a music writer, i'd have a lot of sad country songs, or blues :)
RevRandy . . . good way to get those feelings out ... in music, in words,
fang . . . i'm still having trouble writing a letter to my dad,
Hypernoodle . . . sometimes you just have to start writing, then let it flow
Elissa . . . ok, when you're ready... or create some sort of ritual in her honor
RevRandy . . . the first sentence is always the hardest, I find
fang . . . does crying through the whole thing matter
Hypernoodle . . . It is because of that blank sheet of paper
journey . . . fang your intention was loving, is loving :)
Elissa . . . no, crying is healing
Elissa . . . and any last thoughts on miracles before we turn into pumpkins?
Starseed . . . love them
fang . . . yes, i was praying for my parents to meet her on the other side, and that she would be able to see and play when she got there
Hypernoodle . . . I still believe miracles are all around us
Starseed . . . i love them
fang . . . i doo too
Elissa . . . ((((((star))))))
RevRandy . . . it is the hour of 11 on this here east coast
Elissa . . . anyone else want a hug? they're free!
fang . . . i just have a hard time seeing them, but i feel like the puppies were miracles
journey . . . just that they happen all the time, thank God, Creator..the Universe
Hypernoodle . . . lol ((((Elissa)))) How about one back?
Elissa . . . then they are, fang :)
Starseed . . . ((((((((RR)))))))))(((((((((Elissa)))))))))
Elissa . . . (((((((hyper))))))))))))
fang . . . ((((((((((((((rr,elissa)))))))))))))))))
Elissa . . . ((((((((((((fang))))))))))))))
Hypernoodle . . . (((RR)))
journey . . . thanks again RR and Elissa and Rikkity for your insight and PtoP
Hanna . . . me me... me me me
Elissa . . . ((((((((((journey))))))))))))) yes, thank god and the universe... and us!!!
Hypernoodle . . . ((((Hanna))))
Elissa . . . (((((((((((hanna))))))))))))))
RevRandy . . . thanks to you all
Starseed . . . (((((((((Dear Hanna))))))))))))))))
RevRandy . . . ((((((((((((((((((((everybody)))))))))))))))))))) group hug
journey . . . hhehe elissa, i include us all ways :)
Elissa . . . (((((((((((((SP)))))))))))))))
Hanna . . . Ahhhhhh thank you 'lissa and hypernoodle & starseed!! :)
journey . . . gosh i might have to sing the barney song...lol
Starseed . . . lol
[SOUND]
* Playing txplay20.mrc to #SpiritualPersistence with 50ms delay
Elissa . . . 13,0!Elissa rainbow.mid 0,13 :o)
Hypernoodle . . . I love you, you love me........
Elissa . . . now everybody remember your assignment or Rikkity will be pissed!
Hypernoodle . . . We have ALL those Barney videos :)
fang . . . i love you you love me we're a happy family
Elissa . . . rofl!!!!!
fang . . . what was it for the latecomer?
Hypernoodle . . . Rats.....I missed the assignment
fang . . . demerit winner
Hypernoodle . . . oh well....no homework!
Elissa . . . you wish hyper lol
Hypernoodle . . . lol
Elissa . . . wt will tell you
Hypernoodle . . . You think?
Elissa . . . i know... or else LOL
Starseed . . . ((((((((((Room)))))))))))))))))))
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* Hanna waves goodnight to all - stay safe! :)
fang . . . night all god bless and dog kisses to you
journey . . . nite fang, bless you
Hypernoodle . . . take care, fang :)
journey . . . Goodnite Elissa, marie and hyper, stay well and happy..elissa i shall find your book :)
Hypernoodle . . . night Journey
Elissa . . . love you!
Elissa . . . bye :)
Hypernoodle . . . love to all of you :)
*** Disconnected
Session Close: Sun Jun 04 23:31:42 2000