log061100

Session Start: Sun Jun 11 20:44:58 2000
*** Now talking in #SpiritualPersistence
*** Topic is ' 2,4~ Tonight's 2,7Topic: 2,8"Brain and Spirit" 2,9Sunday 2,11June 11 0,12at 9pm 2,13EDT ~ 0,2Hosted by Rev. Dr. Randolph Becker & Elissa Bishop Becker (and Rikkity). URL: www.spiritualpersistence.com '

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RevRandy . . .hello Jackie
Jackie . . .hi everyone
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RevRandy . . .hello TF
Jackie . . .Hi TF
mare . . .hi tf
TF88 . . .hello randy, jackie and mare
Elissa . . .hi everyone!
TF88 . . .hi Elissa!
Jackie . . .Hi
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RevRandy . . .Well, I think it is about time to get started -- yes? No? maybe?
Jackie . . .yes
osoulomio . . .yes
RevRandy . . .Welcome to Spiritual Persistence
RevRandy . . .your Sunday evening chance to consider some deeper thoughts and connections
RevRandy . . .Elissa will probably share with us (for newcomers) a little intro to the chat
RevRandy . . .((I hope))
Elissa . . .ok, hang on a sec
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TF88 . . .hi suwan!
Elissa . . .RevRandy has been a Unitarian Universalist minister for
Elissa . . .almost 30 years, with a thriving congregation in
Elissa . . .Williamsburg, VA.
Elissa . . .I am a writer, medium, and published poet, and
Elissa . . .am currently a Masters student in Community Counseling
Elissa . . .at the College of William and Mary.
Elissa . . .My and RevRandy's daughter, Ericka (now known as Rikkity in spirit)
Elissa . . .died in an automobile collision with a drunk driver
Elissa . . .on August 20, 1995. She was 20 years old, and going into
Elissa . . .her junior year at Yale.
Elissa . . .8 days after her death, RevRandy
Elissa . . .and I began communicating with her.
Elissa . . .Spiritual Persistence is Rikkity's name for that body of
Elissa . . .wisdom she has shared with us in the form of Points to
Elissa . . .Ponder. It is a unique vision of the nature of spiritual
Elissa . . .and physical existence, of the continuity between life
Elissa . . .and death, of connection, and of our place in the universe.
Elissa . . .And it is guidance we follow that has helped us to learn,
Elissa . . .to heal from grief, and to live better lives. We are here to
Elissa . . .share this wisdom with you and to explore what it means
Elissa . . .to you personally, as we learn from one another on this journey.
Elissa . . .If you have any further questions, please feel free to
Elissa . . .private message (pm) anyone with an "@" in front of their name
Elissa . . . or email Randy or me anytime. Thanks
Elissa . . .for coming...and again, welcome! Does anyone have any questions
Elissa . . .before we begin?
RevRandy . . .So, welcome one and all
RevRandy . . .before we begin our chat,
RevRandy . . .we invite you to join in the spirit
RevRandy . . .of a simple invocation
RevRandy . . .May we be connected to all things loving
RevRandy . . .Protected from all things evil
RevRandy . . .And guided in all ways gracious. Amen.
Elissa . . .amen~
osoulomio . . .Amen
Jackie . . .amen
mare . . .amen
TF88 . . .amen
suwan . . .amen
RevRandy . . .Tonight, for the price of one admission, you will be getting two chats!
RevRandy . . .That's right - 100% extra free
Jackie . . .double feature
Elissa . . .or multiple personality lol
RevRandy . . . 1,4Not available in stores
Elissa . . .hahaha
suwan . . .yippee!!
RevRandy . . .In our first hour, we will be considering
RevRandy . . .a point to ponder from Rikkity
RevRandy . . .with some brain stretching stuff
Elissa . . .get your advil or aleeve ready
RevRandy . . .and then in the second half
RevRandy . . .we are going to turn to each other to
RevRandy . . .share ways in which
RevRandy . . .how shall I put this ....
RevRandy . . .duh
Elissa . . .how she put it :)
RevRandy . . .I forgot
RevRandy . . .sorry
RevRandy . . .:-(
TF88 . . .brain already stretched???
RevRandy . . .I had it here, and now it is gone ......
suwan . . .uh oh Rev's having a senior moment
RevRandy . . .what brain
Elissa . . .uh oh
RevRandy . . .I will look for it, and get back to you --- but trust me - it's good
RevRandy . . .(and remember it is free)
RevRandy . . .OK
RevRandy . . .Let's move on
RevRandy . . .while we still can.
Elissa . . .what has helped us through loss or crisis
Elissa . . .with randy and i sharing what we have learned from Rikkity
Elissa . . .and others sharing from their own experiences
RevRandy . . .yep - that's the ticket -
* suwan thinks this little laugh helps
Elissa . . .yeah so see, we're not perfect!
Elissa . . .how surprised is everyone?
RevRandy . . .so, here we go with that mind stretcher
suwan . . .floored
Elissa . . .rofl!!!!!
RevRandy . . .I would have been astounded, but I forgot to be
RevRandy . . .anymoo
RevRandy . . .here goes
RevRandy . . . 0,2"So, let's talk physics.
RevRandy . . . 0,2Physics is based on the idea that there is a here and a there.
RevRandy . . . 0,2Without that you can't have acceleration, for that depends on time and distance.
RevRandy . . . 0,2So without time and/or distance you can't have acceleration.
RevRandy . . . 0,2Ok.
RevRandy . . .Ok -
RevRandy . . .it is physics we are going to discuss
RevRandy . . .and before you click over to see what is on Fox
RevRandy . . .let me say some things -
RevRandy . . .physics is not the big mystery people think of it as
Elissa . . .whew
RevRandy . . .it is just about the apparent rules by which things happen (notice I did not say "laws")
RevRandy . . .and what she is saying here
RevRandy . . .is that the present understanding of physical existence
RevRandy . . .depends on a difference between
RevRandy . . .here and there
RevRandy . . .You know this - this is not rocket science (well, actually it is)
RevRandy . . .when you need to know how fast you go, you measure and the distance and the time
RevRandy . . .and then add your stops for bathroom breaks
Jackie . . .:)
RevRandy . . .and food
RevRandy . . .and get your speed.
RevRandy . . .And in the process of going from the couch at home to your car at 60 mph (100kph)
RevRandy . . .you need to accelerate from 0 to 60
RevRandy . . .which could be in a matter of seconds or minutes or years or centuries
RevRandy . . .how fast you move from starting to moving
RevRandy . . .means you have to go from here
RevRandy . . .to
RevRandy . . .there
RevRandy . . .in some amount
RevRandy . . .of time
RevRandy . . .See - all very simple
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Elissa . . .yep
RevRandy . . .but, without time and/or distance, you can't have acceleration
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RevRandy . . .hello new arrivals
chickodee . . .hello, Rev Randy
RevRandy . . .(and hang in there - this may sound like General Science 101 - but it is going somewhere spiritual)
suwan . . .well, let me just say, I'm filled with admiration for someone who could not remember what we were going to discuss in the second half to take on the teaching of physics in the first half! (just kidding you rev)
Elissa . . .why do you think he couldn't remember the second half! lol
RevRandy . . .(;-) suwan
TF88 . . .just for the record......
RevRandy . . .yes
TF88 . . .I never studied physics :)
Elissa . . .me either
TF88 . . .so keep it simple please :)
RevRandy . . . 0,2Now force is mass times acceleration, or mass is acceleration divided into force.
RevRandy . . . 0,2Ok, so if you don't have here and there you don't have acceleration,
RevRandy . . . 0,2and then you don't have mass.
RevRandy . . . 0,2And if E = mc squared; and there is no mass, then you have no energy.
RevRandy . . . 0,2So take Geritol and get your energy back.
RevRandy . . .OK - this is not too complicated
RevRandy . . .if we break it down
RevRandy . . .if we follow classical physics
RevRandy . . .we find they have a formula
RevRandy . . .that says that force equals mass times acceleration
RevRandy . . .and you all know this too
RevRandy . . .it is simple -- just follow this
chickodee . . .I dont know...this may be just a bit too scientific for me..lol
Elissa . . .it will become spiritual soon, chickodee :)
TF88 . . .I figure maybe now's my chance to learn a tad about physics
RevRandy . . .You have two rocks in your front yard
RevRandy . . .one big and one small
RevRandy . . .ok
Elissa . . .it's all connected
RevRandy . . .now if you try to push them each, it will take a lot more force to push the big one than the small one
RevRandy . . .and if you choose to push the smaller one around your yard,
RevRandy . . .(why, I don't know ..... but let's assume you do it)
RevRandy . . .it will take more force to get it going faster
RevRandy . . .that's all it says.
RevRandy . . .and you knew this all the time -- now, put the rocks back where you found them - thanks
TF88 . . .ahhhhhh, like moving with more force, makes the hammer strike the piano string faster, thus the sound is louder???
chickodee . . .thats very interesting to think about
RevRandy . . .yep -
TF88 . . .thanks randy
Jackie . . .effort force, the pianist
RevRandy . . .force can translate into a number of things - like the loudness in music
RevRandy . . .also, as piano players know, it takes more force to play some notes (where the strings are more tightly strung)
Elissa . . .sort of like grief feelings--it takes more to get moving forward
TF88 . . .although "force" is really speed I guess with piano
RevRandy . . .But, if nothing is accelerating
RevRandy . . .then no force is being added
RevRandy . . .that rock - if it does not move, there is no force involved
RevRandy . . .but, taking the same equation
Jackie . . .inertia
RevRandy . . .without any acceleration
RevRandy . . .then you have no mass either
RevRandy . . .hmmmm
Elissa . . .hmmmm
RevRandy . . . 0,2Now force is mass times acceleration, or mass is acceleration divided into force.
RevRandy . . . 0,2Ok, so if you don't have here and there you don't have acceleration,
RevRandy . . . 0,2and then you don't have mass.
RevRandy . . . 0,2And if E = mc squared; and there is no mass, then you have no energy.
RevRandy . . . 0,2So take Geritol and get your energy back.
suwan . . .hmmm?
RevRandy . . .now, the second half of this piece talks about the Einstein thingie (that's a technical term)
RevRandy . . .about E = mass times the speed of light squared
RevRandy . . .don't fret
Elissa . . .einstein took geritol?
RevRandy . . .it just means that energy and mass are related
RevRandy . . .(yes - he took it once a day)
Elissa . . .ah
RevRandy . . .but,
RevRandy . . .now follow this
RevRandy . . .you have no
RevRandy . . .energy
RevRandy . . .if you have no mass
RevRandy . . .because if there is a zero on one side of the equation
RevRandy . . .then you get a zero on the other side
RevRandy . . .and if you have no acceleration
RevRandy . . .you have no mass
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RevRandy . . .and if you have no "here" and "there" you have no acceleration
RevRandy . . .so without acceleration in the equation, no energy in the universe
RevRandy . . .ha
RevRandy . . .see, you could understand it
RevRandy . . .but ... wait a minute,
suwan . . .i could?
Elissa . . .yes suwan, you could
RevRandy . . .does this mean that there is no energy in the universe?
RevRandy . . .only if there is no such thing as "here" and "there"
RevRandy . . .and the present physics hold
Jackie . . .what if the mass is just sitting there, potential energy
RevRandy . . .is it potential just sitting --- no, unless it is sitting on the edge of a cliff about to fall
Jackie . . .right
Jackie . . .but it still exists
RevRandy . . .just being does not energy make (in the current physics) although the components of the rock may be very energetic
Elissa . . .internally?
Jackie . . .plutonium
RevRandy . . .but only if the little electrons etc inside have acceleration --- what if we can no longer apply that part of the equation
RevRandy . . . 0,2"So, a puzzler:
RevRandy . . . 0,2How to have a physical reality of energy and mass without a differential of here and there.
RevRandy . . . 0,2Ok.
RevRandy . . . 0,2You say, or someone says,
RevRandy . . . 0,2'We know there is a here and there because it always takes time to get from here to there, even at the speed of light.'
RevRandy . . . 0,2But what about faster.
RevRandy . . . 0,2Is there a limit?
RevRandy . . . 0,2If not, eventually here and there collapse into one;
RevRandy . . . 0,2and with that, bye-bye physical existence- -at least at the formula level.
RevRandy . . . 0,2So how to speak of existence without a here and there.
RevRandy . . . 0,2'Parallel' doesn't do it, but 'simultaneous' does.
RevRandy . . . 0,2And that's all I have been given to say because I wouldn't understand s h i t beyond that
RevRandy . . . 0,2and neither would you until we all move on." (6/7/2000)
RevRandy . . .Now, what she is posing is a great challenge to modern physics
RevRandy . . .and also to modern spirituality
Elissa . . .not to SP :)
RevRandy . . .how to speak about physical reality
RevRandy . . .when one of its "laws" is up for grabs
RevRandy . . .why?
RevRandy . . .recent physics experiments (using the same mathematical models on which the whole system works)
RevRandy . . .has produced some startling discoveries
RevRandy . . .one is that it now appears (both theoretically and experimentally)
RevRandy . . .that some particles exist in two "places" at once!
RevRandy . . .you cannot differentiate their existence by location
RevRandy . . .for those particles
RevRandy . . .there is neither here nor there
RevRandy . . .And then on top of that,
RevRandy . . .another experiment has shown
RevRandy . . .that some light travels at a speed greater than the speed of light!
RevRandy . . .the limit of the speed of light as the basis for all the present calculations of what is normal
RevRandy . . .use a constant which may not be constant!
RevRandy . . .and for that light
RevRandy . . .it is possible to arrive
RevRandy . . .there
RevRandy . . .before it has in effect left
RevRandy . . .here
RevRandy . . .(and out the window goes the normal theories of cause and effect)
Elissa . . .yay
RevRandy . . .So, without a here and there
RevRandy . . .you can't have acceleration
RevRandy . . .and so mass (as it is defined)
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RevRandy . . .and energy (as it is defined)
RevRandy . . .no longer hold
RevRandy . . .now, why all this scientific stuff
RevRandy . . .because these discoveries and their implications
RevRandy . . .as pointed out by Rikkity (who only had high school physics - she seems to be on grad level now)
RevRandy . . .suggest
RevRandy . . .that the old physical models,
RevRandy . . .which have held sway for a millennium
RevRandy . . .may well need to be questioned
RevRandy . . .and changed
RevRandy . . .and with that
RevRandy . . .physical reality
RevRandy . . .will have to take into account
RevRandy . . .stuff that was excluded before
RevRandy . . .different energies
RevRandy . . .different ways of seeing connections
RevRandy . . .which is what we have been saying for so long
RevRandy . . .So, what do y'all see in this.
RevRandy . . .anything?
Elissa . . .the future
StF . . .Whispers "Sorry I'm late"
Elissa . . .hey stf :)
RevRandy . . .(whispers "it's ok")
Elissa . . .only one demerit, stf
StF . . .:)
RevRandy . . .I think it will be interesting to see what those who have used
RevRandy . . .physics to deny metaphysics will do
RevRandy . . .when metaphysics in its way of thinking of connections
RevRandy . . .may point the way to new understandings
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StF . . .Some metaphysical writings have said that "that" is what this "age" is about :)
Elissa . . .it would seem to say that we will need a whole new vocabulary to describe physical existence, and that would need to include a vision of the connection between "here" and "there" in many different senses
RevRandy . . .indeed, here and there would be seen as facets of the same thing
Elissa . . .including the connection between physical life and spiritual life
Kate . . .Good Evening all...
RevRandy . . .hi
Jackie . . .is this in a journal somewhere (the info. about some light traveling faster than the speed of light) or chats with Rikkity only?
Elissa . . .hi kate
RevRandy . . .it was in a recent Times of London article, and should appear shortly in a piece in Science or Scientific American
TF88 . . .I believe there is a term which I can't remember...about the phenomenon when someone appears in two places (physically) simultaneously.
StF . . .Dont know about that Jackie, but one night in another chat a young man was telling us that the theory of gravity no longer holds
Elissa . . .it is in a journal, i think--or will be--in Nature
RevRandy . . .now, StF that is a very grave thought
TF88 . . .do you know the term randy?...I wanted to research it, and it sounds similar to this topic
Jackie . . .I wondered so I could read more about it,
RevRandy . . .simultaneity it would be
StF . . .I cant explain it :) but they ARE teaching something other than gravity now
RevRandy . . .it is an extension, StF of the unified field theory
Elissa . . .if there is no "here" and "there" then what Rikkity has told us about our fields and about the nature of time fits
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Elissa . . .hey fang!
fang . . .hey
StF . . .ahhh. yes, I think so :)
RevRandy . . .I am attempting to find you the citation about the speed of light stuff
Elissa . . .how could a spirit be reincarnated and in spirit at the same "time"? if there's no here and there, why not :)
RevRandy . . .http://www.sunday-times.co.uk/news/pages/sti/2000/06/04/stifgnusa01007.html
fang . . .we're in here and there already aren't we?
RevRandy . . .that is the URL for the Times of London piece
RevRandy . . .we are fang - existing at many levels
suwan . . .if you are interested in this topic read Gary Zukav's book "The Dancing Wu Li Masters"
Elissa . . .yes fang, but our ideas about physical reality make us talk in linear terms... this is non-linear
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RevRandy . . .one of the classics of modern physics
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TF88 . . .thanks suwan...was just looking at that title today
suwan . . .and of Modern Spiritualism
Elissa . . .((((((kath))))))
RevRandy . . .to me they are the same thing
kath . . .(((( E )))))
RevRandy . . .and that I think is the challenge of this new info
fang . . .do you think einstein believed in spiritualism?
RevRandy . . .to see spirituality and physical science as partners
StF . . .Spiritual scientists!!! My goodness! what is this world coming too??? :)
suwan . . .well I think that it used to be that scientists were considered atheists and now, with what they are discovering, they are among the most spiritual
Elissa . . .lol stf
RevRandy . . .there is real evidence of Einstein being mystically inclined
suwan . . .yes he meditated daily and claimed that all of his discoveries came to him during his meditations
Elissa . . .they just don't know it suwan
RevRandy . . .but Einstein was limited by language from his own experiences
RevRandy . . .What we will see (and already are seeing) is a digging of trenches by the old-line physicists
RevRandy . . .as they try to defend the territory they see as their own
Jackie . . .would this explain deja vu, here and yet not left there yet
Elissa . . .our future way of looking at our reality will be quite different... it will change everything we do and perceive IMHO :)
RevRandy . . .surely could
Elissa . . .many of them are fearful
Elissa . . .yep jackie, crossed wires so to speak
StF . . .meditated? I read he "slept" short passages, and so did Edison, and that is how they got their ideas, in dreams
RevRandy . . .think of how world views changed with the concept of a global earth, not a flat one......
RevRandy . . .everything changed
StF . . .somewhat the same thing, I guess
TF88 . . .which was the one who tried to allow ideas to come during between awake/asleep?
Jackie . . .then we could be in the spirit world and on earth at the same time maybe?
Elissa . . .tf, are you thinking of edgar cayce?
RevRandy . . .sounds good to me, Jackie - would explain dreams, etc
TF88 . . .no, a scientist
Jackie . . .perhaps only parts of us that need to learn and remember are here
Jackie . . .and the rest is there?
Elissa . . .o... i don't know
TF88 . . .well, I sure could be remembering incorrectly
RevRandy . . .or we are both places all the time, just focusing more
StF . . .Yes, enlightened scientists are now noting how arrogant it is believe "scientific" laws have all been proven already
RevRandy . . .we know of many "laws" of the past which are jokes today
RevRandy . . .and more interesting
RevRandy . . .some laws of the past that can no longer be proven using the exact same methods used then
Jackie . . .just need a stronger microscope, etc.
StF . . .that's interesting!
Elissa . . .very interesting
StF . . .subject to the theory of You prove what you want to!
RevRandy . . .Well, those of you with stretched brains .... it is 10 ET, and so we will take a short break,
RevRandy . . .and come back with the second half of "Brain and Spirit" with the spirit half
RevRandy . . .But this was spirited already!
Elissa . . .bbbbbbbbrrrrrrrrreeeeeeeaaaaaaaaaaakkkkkkkkkkk
Jackie . . .I feel we are just getting started
RevRandy . . .have fun chatting away - we will be back in about 8.749738 minutes (using a quartz atomic clock)
RevRandy . . .yes -
RevRandy . . .it feels to me like we are just at the beginning of a great journey
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RevRandy . . .hello WT
WhiteTiger . . .RR :)
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StF . . .The next generation will just connect through MIND...wouldn't That be something!
RevRandy . . .ok - I am now on both mIRC
RevRandymirror . . .and Java
RevRandy . . .so I am here and there
RevRandymirror . . .yes, I am
Jackie . . .and all there?
RevRandy . . .I'm never
StF . . .You're really pushing it tonight!!! LOL Rikkity would be proud!
RevRandymirror . . .all there
WhiteTiger . . .hmmmmm... is duality the topic this week?
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RevRandy . . .But, it is time to come back together
Elissa . . .hey wt!!!
Jackie . . .lol :)
RevRandy . . .to continue our chat
WhiteTiger . . .Elissa :)
RevRandy . . .we have a duality of topic
RevRandy . . .in that we discussed cutting edge physics in the first hour
WhiteTiger . . .close enough for govt work, I suppose
Elissa . . .and cutting edge spirituality
RevRandymirror . . .and now will be discussing very non-theoretical stuff about our own grief and crisis journeys
WhiteTiger . . .ack! I MISSED the physics chat???
RevRandy . . .you did
Elissa . . .you DID!!!! you must be soooo pissed off at yourself!!!!
* WhiteTiger contemplates shooting the cranky CPU
Elissa . . .hahahaha
TF88 . . .well gee...there's always the log
RevRandymirror . . .no, don't do it - no violence here
fang . . .then it really won't work
suwan . . .it does not pay to miss one single minute of spiritual persistence!
Elissa . . .ok, are we ready for part deux?
RevRandymirror . . .I am
WhiteTiger . . .aw. logs are no fun... they don't argue back ;)
StF . . .lay it on us!
RevRandy . . .yes
Elissa . . .you tell em suwan! no demerits for you!
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Elissa . . .well this transition point tonight
suwan . . .:) {-----Angelic smile
TF88 . . .ROFL
Elissa . . .is about transition points... (ok suwan that's enough, here's your gold star)
* Elissa pastes a big gold star on suwan's forehead
suwan . . .thank you
Elissa . . .we will talk about our journeys through loss and crisis
Elissa . . .and i've written a little ditty for you about my own journey
Elissa . . .and what i've learned from Rikkity.
WhiteTiger . . .uh oh
RevRandy . . .sing it sister
Elissa . . .so, what has helped and sustained me through loss and
Elissa . . .crisis...
Elissa . . .some of you may think that, because i have had
Elissa . . .contact with Rikkity since 8 days after her death, i
Elissa . . .have had a less intense or less powerful grief
Elissa . . .experience.
Elissa . . . well, at the beginning i thought about
Elissa . . .suicide so we could be together again, until she told
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Elissa . . .me i would not find her if i cut my life and learnings
Elissa . . .short.
Elissa . . .all i thought about was her, until she said
Elissa . . .that my life was not just a waiting room to see her and
Elissa . . .that i had things to do and learn in this life that,
Elissa . . .if i did not, would prevent our entity from moving
Elissa . . .forward.
Elissa . . .i had little energy and no sense of how to
Elissa . . .focus what i did have, until she taught me to stop
Elissa . . .trying to get everyone else to give it to me, to deal
Elissa . . .with my feelings of guilt and fear, let go of the
Elissa . . .illusion of control, and learn how to create my own
Elissa . . .energy by being who i am.
Elissa . . .i focused on her life and
Elissa . . .what she had given me and what was gone, until she
Elissa . . .taught me to accept myself, ask "what's in the glass,"
Elissa . . .and start my life all over again by focusing on what
Elissa . . .i could offer and receive.
Elissa . . .i learned to deal with
Elissa . . .change by learning to recognize that pain is a signal
Elissa . . .that says, "don't stop the process now, there's more
Elissa . . .to come that will bring joy and fulfillment and
Elissa . . .balance."
Elissa . . .with her guidance, i began to think
Elissa . . .non-linearly... looking at time as sequence and
Elissa . . .focusing forward to take infinitely small steps toward
Elissa . . .a meaningful future while sorting out what i could
Elissa . . .keep of the past. encouraged by our communications,
Elissa . . .i sought out a spiritual counselor who believed in my
Elissa . . .abilities and helped me gain the confidence i needed
Elissa . . .in order to act as a medium for others... i was elated
Elissa . . .that i could actually do what i had only dreamed of in
Elissa . . .the past, and began to realise that my growth and
Elissa . . .becoming fulfilled had only begun with the death of
Elissa . . .my beloved child...
Elissa . . .the future "me" was more than i was
Elissa . . .before... i was more empathetic, more focused, more in
Elissa . . .touch with the reality of my own life and feelings,
Elissa . . .and--ironically--the more aware i was of how little
Elissa . . .control i had, the more in control i was of my choices.
WhiteTiger . . .:)
Elissa . . .i wrote a book about my experiences during that first
Elissa . . .year of grief, and then i started school again and
Elissa . . .a new life as a counselor... finally making real
Elissa . . .another dream i'd always had. i learned to trust myself, understanding
Elissa . . .that i was not--and never would be--perfect and that
Elissa . . .that was ok--in fact, that was more than ok. what was
Elissa . . .important was that i be myself, speak my own truth
Elissa . . .(even though that was and is constantly changing...
Elissa . . .since change is the only constant), and focus on
Elissa . . .that which will bring the greatest good for both
Elissa . . .myself and others. i learned that you cannot dance
Elissa . . .if you're standing still.
Elissa . . .i learned that life and death
Elissa . . .are a whole, and that Rikkity, Randy, and i have been
Elissa . . .together before in other lives, and will be together
Elissa . . .again. i am nowhere near the end of my grief journey,
Elissa . . .and i learn something almost every day.
Elissa . . .i'm not saying i always remember!!! and many things i
Elissa . . .learn over and over again :) but probably what has
Elissa . . .helped me the most is the ability to see crisis as
Elissa . . .opportunity, and to stay open to whatever comes, with
Elissa . . .hope that on the other side of the painful experience
Elissa . . .lies transformation and laughter and eternal love.
StF . . .amen
Elissa . . .and
Elissa . . .in my dreams of the future, i see Rikkity greeting
Elissa . . .me with outstretched arms,
Elissa . . .saying "you done good,
Elissa . . .Mom. let's go dancing."
Elissa . . .*
RevRandy . . .ty
TF88 . . .thank you E
StF . . .I'm speechless
Elissa . . .yw
Elissa . . .Randy it's your turn
RevRandy . . .OK
RevRandy . . .I pick up with one of the points which you made
RevRandy . . .for I have found it to be an essential one for me
RevRandy . . .dealing with Eri's death
RevRandy . . .and her re-appearance in our lives as Rikkity
RevRandy . . .and that is the concept of hope -
RevRandy . . .the belief that one the other side of anything
RevRandy . . .and I do mean anything
RevRandy . . .there can be meaning.
RevRandy . . .It may not look like what we thought meaning would look like
RevRandy . . .it belongs to the new landscape
RevRandy . . .that was revealed in the process of the future unfolding
RevRandy . . .but it is a meaning that we can find and embrace
RevRandy . . .so, I have been able to live with hope
RevRandy . . .through the dark nights of the soul
RevRandy . . .and the meaning I am hopeful about
RevRandy . . .is my essential connection to all-that-is
RevRandy . . .that I am not some free agent wandering in existence
RevRandy . . .only willy-nilly making connections
RevRandy . . .but that the connections I make are part of the process
RevRandy . . .of creation by which not only am I shaped
RevRandy . . .but by which all-that-is is also shaped.
RevRandy . . .That I cannot exist outside of all-that-is
RevRandy . . .and all-that-is cannot exist separate from me.
RevRandy . . .or you
RevRandy . . .or any of us
RevRandy . . .at any level of spiritual existence.
RevRandy . . .With those two thoughts - of hope and ultimate connection -
RevRandy . . .I find that I feel like I can face the future
RevRandy . . .with a sense of anticipation, not dread.
RevRandy . . .*
Elissa . . .beautiful randy
suwan . . .thanks Rev and Elissa, that was very moving
StF . . .Thank you, Father, that two such as these have entered my life.
RevRandy . . .and now it is YOUR turn to speak about what has sustained you
Elissa . . .((((((StF))))))
Elissa . . .yes, now it's your turn to share what has helped you
Elissa . . .and so help all of us
Elissa . . .volunteers? or do we go down the dreaded list :)
WhiteTiger . . .lol
Elissa . . .yes wt? you giggled?
Jackie . . .that webbing concept of a couple months ago, interconnected with all, and this
WhiteTiger . . .just noticed I'm last on the list ;)
Elissa . . .we can go up the list :)
StF . . .RR thought that our connections are not willy nilly .... seems such a blessing...
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Elissa . . .blanco, what has been helpful to you?
StF . . .We meet who we are supposed to meet...and those meetings...all meetings I too now recognize as "good"
blancoTigr . . .lmao
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WhiteTiger . . .perspective, I guess...
TF88 . . .for me, coming to understand my past life experiences has helped sustain me...I can know more fully understand the connections beyond just what I see around me.
TF88 . . .this completely changed how I experience moving forward
StF . . .Yes, and the Hope...yes..that even in the midst of the darkness, if we can just hang on..
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StF . . .we know that we will understand and grow and All in All is there through it all
RevRandy . . .i hear a continuing thread of moving past aloneness
Jackie . . .yes, connections and hope, wish I could stay, but must go, nite everyone
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RevRandy . . .that it has been important to have a sense of connection - would anyone be specific about an event in their lives where this has helped?
StF . . .Physically, I am more alone than I have ever been in my life...but emotionally and spiritually I feel more connected than ever :)
Elissa . . .:)
RevRandy . . .that happens - we let go of preconceived notions, and find more fulfilling ones
TF88 . . .everything and every moment holds a fuller meaning than before
StF . . .ok....going out on the limb here....
StF . . .I'm just separated from my husband, children all just left the nest...
StF . . .But I was very Alone in my marriage, and within myself, and with the world at large
StF . . .because I did not trust the Powers that be
StF . . .I am learning to trust that most essential Power, and through that feel a sense of connection, love, and togetherness that I have never felt before in my entire life
StF . . .amen
Elissa . . .amen
RevRandy . . .amen
Elissa . . .who else will share with us?
kath . . .i feel that in a sense i am re=birthing, yet again, on a cellular level. this process is physical, spiritual, mental, emotional
kath . . .i know in my head that i am not alone
kath . . .but i too know that
kath . . .this is a journey where i choose
kath . . .having birthing pangs today
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kath . . .feeling the physicalness of grief and change
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kath . . .grateful i know that this is a process
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Elissa . . .for those who are just joining us
pogo . . .hello
Elissa . . .we're sharing what has helped us on our grief journeys--and life journeys
pogo . . .ok
pogo . . .thanks
jeanne . . .thank you
Elissa . . .yw and welcome :)
Elissa . . .feel free to say whatever comes to mind
Elissa . . .we all learn and are helped by each other
TF88 . . .I think that as we're recognizing more and more these connections, we choose participating rather than being a victim of circumstance
Elissa . . .no spectators in this room :)
WhiteTiger . . .I'm just observing this one... too out of step for this topic
kath . . .i recall days and moments when i could wax philosophical about grief and love, today, i am living a moment of intense grief, but that is good and timely in its own way,
StF . . .ty kath, for reminding me that it is a process
kath . . .cause i choose "real"
fang . . .the thing that helped me through the losses , was having my dogs to care for
kath . . .how will i know anything about physics if i dont know this soul
kath . . .cause to me it is all one, and being open to grief is about physics
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jeanne . . .sometimes when one lets oneself really remember and FEEL the love for one on the other side, it brings on/back the intense grief, but it is the only way to enjoy the love again
Elissa . . .hey carol, we're sharing what has helped us deal with loss and crisis
Carol . . .hi Elissa, Randy, and everyone, ok, thanks
Elissa . . .that's so true, jeanne
jeanne . . .and the love is still the blessing we keep
StF . . .healing is about feeling what one needs to feel, looking at the crisis full in the face, learning from it, and going on, blessed by the experience
RevRandy . . .and you don't get that without being willing to go into the midst of the pain/loss/grief
Elissa . . .how about specific things that help us remember our loved ones and express our feelings? journals, rituals, etc...
jeanne . . .but that can be scary - some days we need to avoid it i guess
Elissa . . .o yes, we can't grieve all the time
kath . . .for a long time, i choose to stay "spiritual" and connect with my loss that way, but the fact is i am human also, so i guess the big thing i am expressing is an openness to "self" an unconditional love for this kath
jeanne . . .I bet we all have private rituals - contacts with the one we miss
Elissa . . .o kath, big learning there
WhiteTiger . . .no rituals here, jeanne :)
kath . . .its weird to know that it is good that your capacity to feel is larger
jeanne . . .yes, kath, we must live in this world while we are here and continue with this "self"
jeanne . . .do you mean "larger" than you realized?
Elissa . . .embrace loss and we embrace life, as Rikkity and MW have said
kath . . .larger than i would have dreamt possible
kath . . .and that is good
jeanne . . .before grief?
kath . . .not always pleasant
kath . . .many levels and forms of grief
StF . . .We cant grieve all the time, but when we avoid, we are not healing, either.. so we cry when we must, and laugh when we can, and heal through allowing the feelings to be
StF . . .and then moving past to a greater understanding
kath . . .i was at the local grocery saturday, and met a neighbor, i used to know well
kath . . .we talked a bit
kath . . .then she said how is your sister mary
kath . . .i said, carol, she died
kath . . .carol said, no kathy, i mean your sister mary not your daughter
kath . . .i said, carol, i am sorry you did not know this
kath . . .but mary, my sister died also
kath . . .it was so weird
jeanne . . .very weird - so sorry kath
kath . . .to stand in the grocery store and tell someone, who knew my sister and my daughter and she was confused also
kath . . .its like the universe says, dear heart, you are ok, it has been a lot
kath . . .in a short time
Elissa . . .((((((kath)))))) it's hard to tell those who don't know, it brings us back to those feelings when we first found out
TF88 . . .maybe that's why my husband won't tell anyone about his brother...I haven't been able to figure out why.
jeanne . . .after my son died, i received a sympathy card "In the Loss of your Daughter"
TF88 . . .he says he doesn't want to upset others...but still, it seems strange to me that he won't tell some people he knows well.
kath . . .(((((jeanne)))) and in a way, that is a blessing,
Elissa . . .tf, maybe he doesn't know how to deal with the feelings it brings up in him
jeanne . . .oh well.......
kath . . .TF, cause you end up comforting them, and sometimes, there just isn't enough to share
StF . . .yes, fear of allowing the feelings to be..keeps us from experiencing them
RevRandy . . .I found the first few times too upsetting, but something told me to go on, and tell others
TF88 . . .I'm not sure E...but I know he doesn't want anyone else to feel what he felt upon receiving the news.
jeanne . . .or he doesn't want to be put in the position of condoling others who are shocked or saddened by the news
Elissa . . .but is it up to us to protect others from reality... hmmmm
kath . . .for me it was self preservation, and the confusion it caused was really sad
RevRandy . . .yes - elissa - good point -- I got to a point where I did not see I needed to comfort them - only engage them in the conversation about Ericka
jeanne . . .maybe it is a natural part of the spirit to protect others from pain
StF . . .but if we allow ourselves to be "human" in our feelings...spirit, in the form of others, All in All, and ourselves will be there for us
jeanne . . .or to soothe others in pain
Elissa . . .or maybe we just realise that people in our culture don't know how to deal with loss
RevRandy . . .yes StF - when we are open to what we need, we receive
kath . . .thats true STF, i am in this moment God's love longing to unite
kath . . .its all reflection
kath . . .to me
kath . . .and that comforts me
kath . . .to know that God is
RevRandy . . .I like to travel by train, and when I share her death to those in the dining car (four of us at a table) one usually looks uncomfortable, but usually one or two will want to talk about their own losses
StF . . .and maybe they need to be re-taught Elissa, and that is what this site and this chat and this evening are all about
Elissa . . .part of our mission, should we choose to accept it stf :)
RevRandy . . .StF - I think those who have passed through the test of fire can be of great help
TF88 . . .I must go...thank you all for sharing
RevRandy . . .Well, it is now past 11, and so it is time for us to close up shop -- but in weeks to come we will continue this kind of discussion
Elissa . . .nite TF
TF88 . . .light and love
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RevRandy . . .be well y'all
RevRandy . . .blessings to each and all
jeanne . . .I feel the only way I can express my gratitude for the comfort that has been given to me is to pass it along to someone else in grief
Elissa . . .thank you all for sharing... it's been very moving for me to hear your pain and your hope and your love
RevRandy . . .(((((jeanne))))
fang . . .((((((((((((((((((rr, and elissa))))))))))))))
RevRandy . . .ty
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suwan . . .goodnight Rev and thank you for everything
RevRandy . . .yw
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* Playing txplay20.mrc to #SpiritualPersistence with 50ms delay
Elissa . . . 13,1!Elissa rainbow.mid 1,13 :o)
StF . . .Blessings, and God's Peace, to all
StF . . .ty RR & E
StF . . .nite
Elissa . . .nite stf and suwan
jeanne . . .goodnight and thank for this site
Elissa . . .nite jeanne and thanks for joining us tonight
jeanne . . .I will visit again - sleep well all
Elissa . . .goodnight. love to you all!
Session Close: Sun Jun 11 23:08:56 2000