log092400

Sun Sep 24 20:53:25 2000
*** Now talking in #SpiritualPersistence
*** Topic is ' 2,4~ Next 2,7Topic: 2,8"God" 2,9Sunday 2,11September 24
0,12at 9pm 2,13EDT ~ 0,2Hosted by Rev. Dr. Randolph Becker & Elissa Bishop
Becker, M.Ed. (and Rikkity). URL: www.spiritualpersistence.com '

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--RevRandy-- hello WT and TF
--WhiteTiger-- RR :)
--Elissa-- hey wt and tf :)
--TF88-- Hi Hi
--Elissa-- hey hey
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--RevRandy-- hello hyper
--WhiteTiger-- Dudette :)
--Elissa-- hyperdudette :)
--Hypernoodle-- HI RR, TigerDude and Elissa :)
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--Elissa-- hey tracy!
--RevRandy-- hi Tracy
--ATracy_in_FL-- Hi everone
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--TF88-- hi Tracy
--RevRandy-- hi amy
--Elissa-- hey amy
--amy-- hi randy
--amy-- hi elissa
--RevRandy-- OK - ready to start folks?
--Elissa-- yep yep yep
--RevRandy-- OK - here's the intro
--RevRandy-- Elissa is a convicted dictator from a south American country
--Elissa-- rofl!!!!
--RevRandy-- and RevRandy is in the witless protection program
--amy-- lol
--TF88-- lol
--WhiteTiger-- well, duh... we have talked to her... we knew that ;)
--Elissa-- i'm innocent i tell you... i was framed!
--RevRandy-- both masquerading as psychic advisors to three Presidents
--Elissa-- the presidents are advisors to us actually
--RevRandy-- unfortunately all dead
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--RevRandy-- We are here each Sunday because our VCR is broken and the cable
is out and we need entertainment
--Elissa-- hi jackie
--RevRandy-- but all seriousness aside
--RevRandy-- welcome
--RevRandy-- hi Jackie
--Jackie-- hi everyone
--WhiteTiger-- better'n masquerading as president to three psychic advisor...
at least a phony psychic advisor ha a little self respect ;)
--Elissa-- ty wt :)
--RevRandy-- ROFLMAO
--RevRandy-- welcome to SP - our weekly look beyond the physically obvious
--RevRandy-- to the psychically possible
--RevRandy-- with aid from Rikkity
--Elissa-- ooo i like that
--RevRandy-- and all of her friends on the other side
--RevRandy-- Please join in the spirit of these words of invocation:
--RevRandy-- 0,2May we be connected to all things loving
--RevRandy-- 0,2Protected from all things evil
--RevRandy-- 0,2And guided in all ways gracious.
--RevRandy-- Amen
--TF88-- Peace
--Elissa-- amen~
--Jackie-- amen
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#SpiritualPersistence
--amy-- amen
--RevRandy-- hi sherry
--sherry-- good evening.
--Elissa-- welcome sherry
--RevRandy-- tonight we have what we think is a provocative topic -- which
actually started in the comments of y'all last week
--RevRandy-- to start us off, here a Point to Ponder:
--RevRandy-- 0,2"And here's a guest: God. If you listened closely you heard
God.
--RevRandy-- 0,2He/she/it/they are part of the silences and spaces between
the things and
--RevRandy-- 0,2sounds of all creation. We so often look for God in special
people or
--RevRandy-- 0,2places--and we UUs say God is in all people and places--but
God is also in
--RevRandy-- 0,2all the non-people and non-places. Caught on the breath of
the wind, a
--RevRandy-- 0,2guest for all who care to tune in." (1/24/97 - I#14)
--RevRandy-- We invite you into a consideration of God
--RevRandy-- But first, the * conditions, exceptions, and legal notices
--WhiteTiger-- lol
--RevRandy-- When we talk about God we realize that the word has many
different connotations for people, and different lebels of meaning
--RevRandy-- all we ask is that we respect each other's thoughts, feelings,
beliefs
--WhiteTiger-- roflmao... what a typo
--Elissa-- lol
--RevRandy-- bad fingers, bad fingers
--Elissa-- and we're here tonight not only to talk about beliefs, but about
doubts and questions
--RevRandy-- and remember that when Rikkity has stated something very definite
and specific she often follows it with "or not"
--RevRandy-- so, let's hear each other, not try to convince or convert each
other
--Elissa-- one more thing:
--RevRandy-- 0,2"And here's a guest: God. If you listened closely you heard
God.
--RevRandy-- 0,2He/she/it/they are part of the silences and spaces between
the things and
--RevRandy-- 0,2sounds of all creation. We so often look for God in special
people or
--RevRandy-- 0,2places--and we UUs say God is in all people and places--but
God is also in
--RevRandy-- 0,2all the non-people and non-places. Caught on the breath of
the wind, a
--RevRandy-- 0,2guest for all who care to tune in." (1/24/97 - I#14)
--Elissa-- those of you who received the PtoPs in email
--Elissa-- and would like us to ponder a certain one please
--Elissa-- feel free to tell us and we'll post it to the room
--WhiteTiger-- ok :)
--Elissa-- ok?
--TF88-- ok
--Elissa-- ok!
--RevRandy-- but first, we will kick off the discussion with a PtoP
--RevRandy-- and a little talk from here -
--RevRandy-- which we hope will stimulate your talking from there
--RevRandy-- 0,2"Now about God. 'He' isn't--not in a unified state. Some talk
process, but
--RevRandy-- 0,2that's not it either. You just can't understand, because your
world and your
--RevRandy-- 0,2minds are finite; but you can try thinking about what God is
not. Then, in
--RevRandy-- 0,2the shadows of the in-betweens, you will get a sense of what
is. As you are,
--RevRandy-- 0,2you will never get it totally. If you think you know for
sure, you're wrong.
--RevRandy-- 0,2
--RevRandy-- 0,2"And let me say this: people are looking at a magnificent
sunrise and then
--RevRandy-- 0,2someone says, 'I can see God's handiwork,' but they had a
sense of it just
--RevRandy-- 0,2before the concept became idea and words. People almost get
it, but then
--RevRandy-- 0,2they become concrete and lose it. And your minds are
programed that way.
--RevRandy-- 0,2Eastern meditation seeks to reprogram or deprogram the
circuits, but all it
--RevRandy-- 0,2does is put new limits in. You see, you'll never get it at
your level of
--RevRandy-- 0,2complexity or spiritual development. And when you think you
have arrived,
--RevRandy-- 0,2you are even further away. Just trust the glimpses and
impressions and know
--RevRandy-- 0,2the knowing will come later. Even I don't know. I just know I
don't know.
--RevRandy-- 0,2I, too, await our entity's development. The difference is
that I am aware that
--RevRandy-- 0,2I can't know yet, and then don't mistake supposition for
reality.
--RevRandy--
--RevRandy-- more of this to come in a few moments ....
--WhiteTiger-- "if you think you know for sure, you're wrong".... good line.
wonder if the source considered that about those definitive statements that
preceded the line? :)
--Elissa-- i'm sure she did wt :)
--RevRandy-- I am sure she did .... and this is her way of saying, I will
state it definitively, but know it as suppositional
--RevRandy-- and I think we all do that ... up to a point
--RevRandy-- in order to live with some meaning, we hold beliefs ... which we
take to be true, definite, precise, concrete
--WhiteTiger-- ya.. idiom varies person to person
--RevRandy-- but what many of us do is to forget that they are more ephemeral
than concrete
--RevRandy-- and that line in there about "People almost get it, but then they
become concrete and lose it."
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--RevRandy-- we experience (sense, intuit, whatever) something within and also
beyond our expressing
--RevRandy-- and we make it concrete with language symbols
--RevRandy-- and those symbols give it attributes
--WhiteTiger-- have to say I doubt any human even "almost gotten" more than a
tiny slice, ever, much less the big pic
--Elissa-- hey sharon :)
* Sharon waves to Elissa
--RevRandy-- and before we know it we have built a statue where once there was
a feeling
--RevRandy-- and then we begin to think the statue is the feeling
--WhiteTiger-- yup... "the map is not the territory"
--RevRandy-- WT - yep - small sliver, which we take as if it is the whole
--RevRandy-- the trick, IMHO, is to remember it is only a sliver
--WhiteTiger-- and the label is not the thing... nor is the referent to which
word point the idea behind the word
--Elissa-- i agree, wt
--RevRandy-- yes WT - and the label (not the lebel) takes on meaning not in
the original experience
--RevRandy-- well, here's some more of this PtoP
--RevRandy-- 0,2
--RevRandy-- 0,2"We are all at the same level. Jesus, Mohammed, etc., they
rarely speak
--RevRandy-- 0,2about specifics of God, but much more about human living and
grand pictures
--RevRandy-- 0,2of the divine. They don't describe attributes as much as
attitudes and
--RevRandy-- 0,2actions. No fools, they. God is not the action or the
attribute, but way
--RevRandy-- 0,2behind them. Like the wave that breaks at Nag's Head but
begins in the
--RevRandy-- 0,2subtle shift of a wing on a far-off planet, so too with God.
--RevRandy-- 0,2"Hey, if you're so great why is your name so short. Because
God's real name
--RevRandy-- 0,2is less than one letter long and greater than all the words
put together.
--RevRandy-- 0,2"Ponder it, but if you get answers doubt them. You can't get
what you can't
--RevRandy-- 0,2get. And you can't always get what you want, and I can't get
no satisfaction
--RevRandy-- 0,2so I think I'll get lunch, but we get our just desserts. It
is helpful to
--RevRandy-- 0,2ponder, but not to think we know. The journey is about travel
not
--RevRandy-- 0,2destinations this level around." (8/30/96 - V#20)
--RevRandy-- I like that part about God's real name ... less than one letter
long and greater than all the words put together
--WhiteTiger-- dunno about that lst line... to me it seems more a case of "a
dirty job, but it's gotta be done"
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--RevRandy-- o - I don't see that in there - say some more WT
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--WhiteTiger-- hi jaybee
--WhiteTiger-- The journey is about travel not
--WhiteTiger-- --RevRandy-- destinations this level around."
--Elissa-- hi jaybee and gettz :)
--WhiteTiger-- that's the line that don't quite ring right with me, personally
--Gettz-- hello all
--RevRandy-- why?
--TF88-- um...who says it has to be a dirty job?
--WhiteTiger-- mmmm... lots of background required to explain that one RR
--WhiteTiger-- lol... chalk it up to personal delusion and forget it... major
sidetrack, and I shouldn't have said anything
--Elissa-- i have a question for everyone... i'd like to know what your 'hints
and glimpses' of God have been
--WhiteTiger-- everything, from star to present (and some after that too)
--Hypernoodle-- when Nikki and I didn't die and we should have
--Elissa-- :)
--Hypernoodle-- when I did die and I didn't :)
--Elissa-- been there done that :)
--Hypernoodle-- yep
--RevRandy-- got to be a powerful one
--Hypernoodle-- It wasn't like I saw him or anything
--Hypernoodle-- It is just a different feeling than here/now
--Elissa-- i felt unconditional love for the first time
--Hypernoodle-- I have felt that before, but it is the only time I have known
something I would tag a miracle
--Hypernoodle-- and that was different
--Hypernoodle-- hmmmm.....the energy was different
--Hypernoodle-- You know that song "Don't worry.....be happy"? It was like
an expression of that song. weird?
--Elissa-- not weird... wonderful
--RevRandy-- if we could only exchange all our worries for happiness
--Elissa-- anyone else... what do you think of/feel as God?
--TF88-- I find the word to be a major stumbling block for me
--WhiteTiger-- me too tf... too many tags on it
--TF88-- so when you pose a question such as that, I don't even know where to
begin
--Elissa-- All That Is?
--WhiteTiger-- I use "creator"... nicely non denominational
--TF88-- well...the word god just isn't in my vocabulary...
--Elissa-- ok
--RevRandy-- the transcendent
--TF88-- what I tend to use is the word universe
--Elissa-- ok, then substitute that word when we use another one
--RevRandy-- let me pose it another way ---- how have you experienced
connection to something larger than self that brought you intense insight,
meaning, or appreciation
--TF88-- I think the closest i've ever felt connected to the universe is
during particular meditative experiences
--WhiteTiger-- to me, all that is, was, will be, and can be is part and parcel
of the creator, and the creator transcends all of it and is much more than
the sum of the parts... is, in fact the sole and unique source
--TF88-- yes randy...that's a good way to pose the question :) thank you
--Elissa-- thank you both... so what i'm hearing is all about a sense of
connection
--Elissa-- and you don't name or lebel it :)
--WhiteTiger-- lol
--TF88-- lol
--Elissa-- 0,2"It's not a dichotomy. There is no separation between the
divine and the
--Elissa-- 0,2other. In most perceptions, one strives to become one with the
divine or
--Elissa-- 0,2the universe or whatever. But this is how I see it: you and I
and all will
--Elissa-- 0,2become the divine because we are all already part of it--it is
in us and we
--Elissa-- 0,2are in it. No separation; no hierarchy.
--Elissa-- like that? :)
--Elissa-- here's the rest of that PtoP:
--TF88-- I like that
--Elissa-- 0,2"A physical parallel: hydrogen is an element, water is a
compound (see, I
--Elissa-- 0,2did pay attention in class), and polymagnesium carbohydrate is
a complex
--Elissa-- 0,2compund, and a house is made of thousands of compounds, and the
universe
--Elissa-- 0,2has many houses. But which is real. All of them are as real as
the next, and
--Elissa-- 0,2all are part of the universe. Complexity is not a measure but a
description.
--Elissa-- 0,2
--Elissa-- 0,2"So with entities, is the level before this less valid. Is the
level to
--Elissa-- 0,2come more valid. In spiritual terms, no. Everything is! And
everything will be!
--Elissa-- 0,2It has always been! How it relates and forms in ever-more
complex ways is
--Elissa-- 0,2the process of all being; and someday--or maybe night--it will
all be
--Elissa-- 0,2unified and that is what some would call the divine, All That
Is in one
--Elissa-- 0,2being. But we are never separate from it. Nothing exists
outside it, or
--Elissa-- 0,2maybe not. Maybe there are other realities, all moving toward
their own
--Elissa-- 0,2unities; and when each and all are unified the process repeats
all over on
--Elissa-- 0,2a grander scale. But All That Is is! It's not! about any
individual act of
--Elissa-- 0,2communion with the divine; it's about infinite acts of union
within the
--Elissa-- 0,2divine. Save yourself and miss the whole shabang.
--Elissa-- 0,2
--WhiteTiger-- in one sense I agree.. if it *is*, it is divine insomuch as
divine will and awareness are it's ultimate genesis... can't escape the hand
that set it all out... but we ain't that hand either, which is the side of
that one that bothers me.
--Elissa-- 0,2"Those who seek their own fulfillment simply delay the larger
processes.
--Elissa-- 0,2It's not about differentiation; it's about integration,
connection.
--Elissa-- 0,2Together we can move on, separately we are pitiful. So the task
is not to seek the
--Elissa-- 0,2divine and find a personal connection, it is to feel the divine
and make
--Elissa-- 0,2eternal connection with others. You can't build if you don't
get together.
--Elissa-- 0,2That's all." (12/2/96 - V#24)
--WhiteTiger-- oops :( sorry
--Elissa-- that's ok, wt... go on
--Elissa-- if it bothers you, you got more pondering to do lol
--WhiteTiger-- lol...
--RevRandy-- For me, my sense of the divine has always come through some
experience of the breakdown of dualisms ... of no longer seeing myself as
separate, nor other things as separated
--RevRandy-- I have vivid memories of a time
--RevRandy-- when I was playing in a musical group, and we were doing a piece
from Wagner
--RevRandy-- (the Procession to the Cathedral from Lohengrin)
--RevRandy-- and in the formal performance, I experienced, for the first time,
the elimination of separate notes and players and instruments
--RevRandy-- and the existence of something larger than any one player or part
or instrument
--RevRandy-- it was the music itself singing above the notes
--RevRandy-- while I was still in the notes too
--RevRandy-- on two planes, as it were, at the same time
--RevRandy-- I was more complex than I had known, because life was sudden seen
as more complex and yet more simple at the same moment
--WhiteTiger-- you expanded awareness to the pattern being shaped... saw the
forest instead of the trees
--RevRandy-- I saw the forest and the trees
--TF88-- comprehending texture, finding simplicity in complexity....excellent
Randy :)
--Elissa-- beautiful randy :)
--RevRandy-- so, does that experience relate to anything you have experienced
personally?
--WhiteTiger-- sure... but it's kind inherent, so it's not remarkable to me.
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--Elissa-- hi angel
--angelv-- hello all
--Elissa-- here's another question for all of you: what are your beliefs about
god/all that is/universe/creation
--Elissa-- (in 25 words or less :)
--WhiteTiger-- we got no hope of ever knowing the source or the purpose...
what's left to steer by is faith (how's that for succinct?) ;)
--RevRandy-- anyone? anyone?
--Elissa-- excellent, wt lol
--Elissa-- sharon, any thoughts? you've been very quiet tonight so far
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--WhiteTiger-- howdy anne
--Elissa-- hi anne
--RevRandy-- I have a question for you all --- it seems like we all are being
very quiet tonight -- is it the topic, or some planetary alignment, or
something else?
--Anne-- hi everyone
--angelv-- lol
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--TF88-- this is a tough topic for me randy :)
--Elissa-- ((((((blue)))))))
--WhiteTiger-- blue :)
--RevRandy-- hey blue
--Hypernoodle-- Homework and I talk too much when I get started :)
--RevRandy-- TF - could you say more about why?
--Hypernoodle-- Hi bluelight :)
--Anne-- what is the topic tonight
--TF88-- but I'm sitting here thinking hard! just not formulating many
sentences :)
--bluelight-- hi Elissa REvRandy everbuddy :D
--RevRandy-- OK - TF
--RevRandy-- we are talking about GOD
--RevRandy-- or God
--RevRandy-- or god
--bluelight-- yes
--Elissa-- it's hard to conceptualize what we can't conceptualize
--Hypernoodle-- The trouble I have is I know the feeling but it doesn't reduce
to words
--WhiteTiger-- bingo, hyper :)
--Elissa-- could you describe the feeling, then, hyper?
--RevRandy-- ah, the mystical sense of it -- hard to express
--Elissa-- o ok nevermind :)
--Hypernoodle-- freedom, lightness, emptiness of world....etc.
--Elissa-- ah there ya go
--RevRandy-- go hyper
--Elissa-- emptiness of world... i'm intrigued by that phrase
--Hypernoodle-- it allows the ability to do what I can not do in this world
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--Elissa-- hi nakita
--Hypernoodle-- -ability.....+strength ?
--nakita-- hi elissa
--WhiteTiger-- "the more one lets go of, the more one gains"
--Elissa-- so a kind of enhancement... expansion?
--Hypernoodle-- a kind of leaving self and joining something else
--TF88-- the more what one lets go of WT? What is it one lets go of?
--WhiteTiger-- tf- what hyper said.. self... the illusions and deceptions we
define ourselves to ourselves with :)
--TF88-- oops, sorry I missed that part
--Hypernoodle-- it is all feeling....not here....not there....just feeling
--Hypernoodle-- but not feeling like emotions here
--Elissa-- according to transpersonal psychology, one needs to let go of the
self... or the image of the self in the world
--Hypernoodle-- a blankness that is full
--TF88-- well that's interesting because that's similar to what I experienced
in one of those meditative experiences I mentioned
--Elissa-- not sure it's letting go that we need to do... more like shifting
focus
--Elissa-- maybe that's the same thing
--Hypernoodle-- it is letting go of here, Elissa
--Hypernoodle-- the here of hmmmm sinking?
--Elissa-- in a sense... it feels different, though to me
--WhiteTiger-- lol.. even here I'm weird... o me, when self is gone what is
left is knowing... ideas, concepts and the patterns they form
--TF88-- everything of "me" dropped away and I was nothing but energy...i mean
my body.
--Hypernoodle-- Where did you go from there, Tf?
--Elissa-- but is it a conscious letting go, or is the letting go a function
of the shifting of focus
--TF88-- there was no where to go...I just "was"
--Elissa-- that's what i mean
--TF88-- except for my feet actually...they were still there LOL
--Hypernoodle-- wrong words? it is more like joining something else
--Elissa-- lol
--Hypernoodle-- does that sound better?
--Elissa-- yes it does :)
--Elissa-- at least from my experience of it
--Hypernoodle-- so I was not gone.....I was still there....but it wasn't just
me
--Hypernoodle-- and yet it wasn't other "beings" lol
--RevRandy-- well, here's another set of words ..... break, respite, snack,
beverage, break, ten minutes off, break, be back soon, talk among
yourselves, break, back for more in 10, break, chat away
--Hypernoodle-- it was a blank totality
--Hypernoodle-- good....homework frenzy!
--Elissa-- bbbbbbbrrrrrrrrreeeeeeeeeaaaaaaaaaaaaakkkkkkkkkkkk
*** RevRandy is now known as RevRandybrb
--Elissa-- ack! what a time to stop... but please keep chatting about this
*** Elissa is now known as Elissa_brb
--angelv-- what is this chat about?
*** RevRandybrb is now known as RevRandy
--bluelight-- God is big enuf to b anything we think he is :0
--WhiteTiger-- angelv- Elissa and RR share communications from their aughter
who is in spirit (rikkity), and we all yack about the info and ideas
involved
--bluelight-- Amen :D lol
--bluelight-- or was that too simple??
--WhiteTiger-- they run a good forum... it's about the best spiritual chat
going right now, imo
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--RevRandy-- WT - we should hire you for PR
--angelv-- their daughter in spirit communicates to them?
--WhiteTiger-- you can't afford me, RR ;)
--WhiteTiger-- yes, they communicate with rikkity
--TF88-- yes angel...check out the website sometime
www.spiritualpersistence.com
--angelv-- I will
--TF88-- you'll find tons of communications with Rikkity and friends
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--teresa-- hello everyone
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--RevRandy-- ok - looks like we are back, and I come back with a PtoP to share
(point to ponder from Rikkity)
--RevRandy-- 0,2"... you do great violence to the spiritual essence to try to
reduce the
--RevRandy-- 0,2sublime to the mundane. It's like describing God with human
attributes;
--RevRandy-- 0,2easy to do but highly demeaning to God, of course, and highly
flattering but
--RevRandy-- 0,2inaccurate to humans.
--RevRandy-- 0,2
--RevRandy-- 0,2"We use our spirits to understand spirit. Recognize that you
won't get it
--RevRandy-- 0,2while you are at this physically-based level. You are moving
there but not
--RevRandy-- 0,2there yet. Me neither. Ok, enough. Look, if you take that
atlas place, you
--RevRandy-- 0,2know your words don't do it justice; but if then you say, ‘I
will give up
--RevRandy-- 0,2on it,' you will never get there. And know you'd have to
start somewhere and
--RevRandy-- 0,2be aimed somewhere. The aim may be inaccurate, but
intra-journey course
--RevRandy-- 0,2corrections can be done. You'll never get to the fork 100
miles down the
--RevRandy-- 0,2road unless you start down the road, see. But but but BUT
remember that
--RevRandy-- 0,2whatever symbols or words you use do not contain the essence.
In this
--RevRandy-- 0,2spiritual level we always see as through a glass dimly, but
that is true of
--RevRandy-- 0,2all spiritual levels until reunion in All That Is. So, don't
give up on
--RevRandy-- 0,2trying to express the inexpressible. It points you in a
probable direction;
--RevRandy-- 0,2but don't make those expressions dogma that keep you from
seeing new paths
--RevRandy-- 0,2and choices and opportunities along the way." (excerpt from
4/15/2000 -I#43)
--Elissa-- that was one i chose for pondering tonight
--RevRandy-- (actually, this is Elissa's point to share, and I just stepped on
her toes, so to speak - sorry dear)
--Elissa-- i chose this one for many reasons... first of all, because i did it
myself
--Elissa-- last sunday lol...
--Elissa-- in describing God, i said, "we cannot know the nature of
--Elissa-- god totally, but we can come close to understanding some of the
attributes
--Elissa-- of god...
--Elissa-- because they are our attributes as well"... ooops :) that's the
--Elissa-- downside of having logs lol...
--Elissa-- it actually made sense in the context...
--Elissa-- but in pondering this i realized that i was
--WhiteTiger-- lol.. imo, all that can be known is an attribute of god
--Elissa-- both right and wrong... our souls contain, as MW said, "the living
remnants
--Elissa-- of the divine,"
--Elissa-- but that does not mean that our attributes are the same as
--Elissa-- god's...
--Elissa-- we can't imagine what god feels, but we can recognize certain of
--Elissa-- our feelings--such as love--as emanating from our connectedness to
All That
--Elissa-- Is...
--Elissa-- and we need to resist the temptation to stop there and say "o! now
--Elissa-- that i have felt love/mercy/empathy i know something about god,"
--Elissa-- because then we stop ourselves from pondering further and create
our own
--Elissa-- dogma...
--TF88-- well now I'm confused
--Elissa-- hang on a sec, tf :)
--Elissa-- so, i may say "i have felt love/mercy/empathy and know that god
--Elissa-- is inherent in those feelings, but i have no clue whether god FEELS
those
--Elissa-- feelings--only that i do"...
--Elissa-- and i continue searching my soul for that which
--Elissa-- connects me to the divine...
--Elissa-- so, doubt is good! doubt is what keeps us
--Elissa-- searching, while faith is what sustains us on that search... i hope
that
--Elissa-- made sense to you.
--bluelight-- i don't doubt that God loves and i am a searcher
--bluelight-- in other words that hasn't stopped me from searching more
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--Elissa-- but is what god/all that is feels what we call "love"?
--bluelight-- doubt is good but i think blind faith is also
--TF88-- if god is "all that is" then whatever you feel at the time you feel
it would be a part of what "all that is" feels...well that's where my
thinking lies at this moment anyway.
--bluelight-- who knows but what does it matter?
--Elissa-- maybe it matters only to our continued seeking and learning
--Elissa-- here's what MW said that i referred to:
--bluelight-- i dont' think it hurts us or God to assign him positive
attributes .. do u c a harm in this Elissa?
--Elissa-- no, blue, i don't... i just don't think we should stop there
--bluelight-- but the point made sounds like to assume God loves in a way that
we might makes us stop searching
--WhiteTiger-- to me it seems simple... if it is, it is from/of the creator...
whether or not it is of or not from our limited perspective doesn't mean
anything... if all is of the creator, then all that is ejected is a block
twixt some part of "not me" and the me who does the perceiving
--bluelight-- he certainly loves MORE than we do by the billions
--Elissa-- ok, see what you think of this by MW (our beloved friend Martha)
--bluelight-- well for a moment lets' assume and toss around the idea that GOD
DOES NOT LOVE .. let's c where that leads
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--Elissa-- 8,2"I do believe in a God of love and mercy, but a very impersonal
God of love
--Elissa-- 8,2and mercy who set forth those qualities in the human soul as
living
--Elissa-- 8,2remnants of the divine for each of us. When bad things happen,
that is not God; that
--Elissa-- 8,2is the flow of nature. But in those times when bad things
happen, the
--Elissa-- 8,2vision of life and love and mercy that allow us to continue
with meaning, there is God.
--Elissa-- 8,2
--Elissa-- 8,2"We speak so often of God the Creator. That role is long gone
but God the
--Elissa-- 8,2Redeemer lives--not God the Redeemer of afterlife but God the
Redeemer of
--Elissa-- 8,2life--caught in the spark of hope that lights the dark passages
of Earthly
--Elissa-- 8,2existence. To not see that spark; to sit in the darkness of
sorrow,
--Elissa-- 8,2despair, denial, is to miss God." (excerpt from 2/7/97 - W#57)
--Elissa-- does it make more sense now?

--TF88-- I think it is the collective love that each brings to all that is
which makes up god's love
--TF88-- (that was in response to blue's thought)
--Elissa-- if god is all-that-is and more... where's the "more" then???
--WhiteTiger-- lol Elissa!
--Elissa-- :)
--WhiteTiger-- had this image of a kid siting on a 20 ft pile of candy saying
"where's the rest?"
--RevRandy-- well, blue raises an interesting point -- what if we assume that
God does not love --
--Elissa-- hahahahahaha
--TF88-- well, what does Rikkity mean when she says "more"
--Elissa-- ok, let's do blue's question
--Elissa-- that's what i'm pondering, tf
--RevRandy-- to me that does not mean an end to love, nor that god does the
opposite
--TF88-- ok...don't mind me as I flounder over here
--bluelight-- when we're told God doesn't know what we know feel what we feel
why even try to communicate ?
--Elissa-- lol we'll all flounder together... it's more fun
--bluelight-- with God i mean
--WhiteTiger-- can't manage to get around that one, blue.. if it is, it's from
he creator.. which means the creator partakes of it... love is, ergo....
--RevRandy-- you guys flounder, I'll scrod
* WhiteTiger votes for brook trout
--RevRandy-- but it seems to me that we might be asking God to love when love
is actually a much less complex activity than what will come along
--Elissa-- i don't believe we can communicate with god directly
--RevRandy-- (unlisted number?)
--Elissa-- C talked about that
--bluelight-- i dont' understand RR .. ask God to love?
--bluelight-- i do it all the time E
--Elissa-- 15,2C:
--Elissa-- 15,2"Think about this: those who say they search for a personal
relationship
--Elissa-- 15,2with God search for the impossible. Why? We can only know what
is in
--Elissa-- 15,2ourselves, and sometimes, if we are fortunate, what is given
us to know of
--bluelight-- we r the ones who put complexity into things .. barricades
around God .. not God
--Elissa-- 15,2another. That's it. There must be effort on both sides if
there is to be
--Elissa-- 15,2connection. We cannot know a personal relationship with God
because God
--Elissa-- 15,2cannot personally relate to us at this level, except...
except... through
--Elissa-- 15,2one another and the sense of the divine in ourselves!
--Elissa-- i hear you don't agree with that, blue
--WhiteTiger-- to me, we are all caught up on the "love" issue in this realm
cuz it's the highest paying of the slot machines in the casino... and to me,
the whole thing isn't about personal benefit
--bluelight-- i do not believe this for one minute excuse me please
--Elissa-- no need for excusing yourself, blue... tell us more about how you
relate to god?
--bluelight-- when i sincerely pray to God i get answered
--bluelight-- i feel the connection .. if i doubted that i connect then i
wouldn't feel it i wouldn't get to share with Him this way
--Elissa-- then that is true for you
--bluelight-- because i don't doubt God is with me and cares
--Elissa-- well, let's talk about doubts... do you have any?
--bluelight-- it is true for anyone
--bluelight-- not about God
--RevRandy-- ah .... now here is something that intrigues me .... blue is
speaking about her experience of god, which is different from mine, which is
different from others .... does this mean that some of us are "wrong" , or
is that we all are "right" when dealing with the infinite natures of the
divine?
--angelv-- Neale Walsh sold a lot of books about his conversations with God
--Elissa-- yes he did
--bluelight-- RevRandy .. this is what i meant .. everyone is right when they
deal with God
--WhiteTiger-- we are all different, and "stand in different places"... seems
to me we are bound to see different sides when we look at the same thing
--RevRandy-- but the test was not if those conversations made sense to him,
but whether they made sense to the others who bought the books
--Elissa-- i don't believe anyone is "wrong"... just have different
awarenesses
--TF88-- what did you mean when you said "it is true for anyone"?
--bluelight-- TF i think when u doubt God it separates u .. God is still there
it is our doubt that makes us feel separate
--Elissa-- "but in doubt is faith and knowledge, for that is the theme and
rhythm of creation" (misquote from another of Rikkity's PtoPs)
--TF88-- thank you for explaining blue
--bluelight-- thanks RR
--angelv-- I disagree blue
--RevRandy-- could some people's experience of the divine be faith, and others
be doubt, just different faces of the divine meeting needs of different
entities?
--Elissa-- if we don't doubt because we fear we'll lose our faith, then is
that really faith?
--WhiteTiger-- doubt is good thing... especially when applied to what we think
we "know"
--TF88-- doubt prompts questioning
--angelv-- exactly
--bluelight-- that is a different doubt .. been there .. it is good
--Elissa-- i have doubts about almost everything... not because i don't have
faith...
--Elissa-- but because i have learned that what i know at the moment
--RevRandy-- isn't the divine as much in the questions as in the answers?
--Elissa-- will certainly change
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--bluelight-- but those doubts dont' make God go away or b different .. God
just is
--WhiteTiger-- "that which will not allow close examination is the thing most
in need of scrutiny"
--Elissa-- hi shari :)
--bluelight-- we're talking about our illusions our perceptions i think
--Shari-- Hi
--Elissa-- right, blue... my doubts don't make anything change except me
--bluelight-- i never meant not to scrutinize.. totally necessary
--RevRandy-- well, I will toss in one more PtoP
--RevRandy-- 0,2"One of the aspects of the growing complexity of the spirit
is that it
--RevRandy-- 0,2takes on more facets, each directed in a unique direction.
And the whole and the
--RevRandy-- 0,2entity--which are the same--have that many more psychic eyes.
When we say
--RevRandy-- 0,2God is able to see all, that does not mean he can or she can
or it can peek
--RevRandy-- 0,2under bathroom stalls. It means that there abides a capacity
to receive
--RevRandy-- 0,2information from all directions of all natures. It is that
the divine is
--RevRandy-- 0,2able to receive all, not that i
--RevRandy-- 0,2able to receive all, not that it is able to look at all."
(excerpt from
--RevRandy-- 0,2 9/15/98 - I#26)
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--RevRandy-- I sense growing awareness meaning that I can sense in more
directions than before
--RevRandy-- that I have more facets open to all that is
--RevRandy-- and then maybe god is an expression of a being with infinite
facets, able to receive from all directions, and whose "face" looks
different to different people
--bluelight-- i disagree with some of that again but it's ok :D .. why is God
not able to c all?
--bluelight-- i just don't put God in a box.. i don't like to say what he
can't do can't c can't anything
--WhiteTiger-- lol... gotta disagree with that ptop... if there is one source,
then all, including any time axis you want to posit, is from that source,
and by definition the creator is transcendent of time, process and interval
as we know them.
--Elissa-- i don't see how that's disagreeing, wt
--RevRandy-- Well, we have had a request for this PtoP
--RevRandy-- 0,2"You meet people who, at 40, still keep ideas from when they
were 5--like
--RevRandy-- 0,2God as an old man. They miss the spirit and freeze the
symbol. Don't do
--RevRandy-- 0,2that!" (excerpt from 3/28/99 - Y#28)
--RevRandy-- and that raises the question, for me --
--RevRandy-- do you think of God the same now as you did when before?
--angelv-- But everyone has free will
--WhiteTiger-- Elissa- spoilsport... I take my best shot of the night and you
just yawn? :P
--Elissa-- :P~~ lol
--WhiteTiger-- lol
--RevRandy-- Well, I have been given instructions from Rikkity to speak about
something
--bluelight-- well all our lives r for a reason .. if it's necessary for some
old people to think of God as an old man maybe that is what brings that
person closer to God .. is it for us to judge? i think God can handle it
--RevRandy-- so, I better do it!!!!!
--Elissa-- go RR!!!
--RevRandy-- It is about the way that god is both permanent and changeable
--RevRandy-- huh?
--RevRandy-- eternal and yet still evolving
--RevRandy-- better
--RevRandy-- and I was told to talk about baseball teams
--RevRandy-- so, here goes
--RevRandy-- You all know the Yankees?
--Hypernoodle-- no
--WhiteTiger-- d**n yankees ;)
--RevRandy-- The great team (please forgive me, since I am a Red Sox fan) of
myth and legend
--TF88-- NY...that's the extent of my Yankees knowledge ;)
--angelv-- yes NY
--Hypernoodle-- oh! from up north!
--Elissa-- i love the yankees :P
--RevRandy-- The Yankees of 1924, of 1956, of 1997
--bluelight-- Cleveland Indians yaaaay
--RevRandy-- great teams
--RevRandy-- but wait
--RevRandy-- the Yankees of 1924 were not the same as 1956 or 1997
--RevRandy-- there is a continuity of the Yankees and at the same time the
Yankees are always different, because of different players
--RevRandy-- and I think she wanted me to suggest that god is something like
that
--RevRandy-- a continuity that is continuously changing at the same time
--RevRandy-- a whole that is becoming something more while still being that
same whole
--RevRandy-- make sense?
--RevRandy-- *
--Elissa-- does to me
--TF88-- yes
--WhiteTiger-- can't agree with that one... just cuz ya let go of the
elephant's leg and grab hold of it's trunk that don't change it from a tree
to a snake
--Elissa-- hahaha i KNEW you'd disagree
--WhiteTiger-- it's a calling ;)
--RevRandy-- but if you grab it elsewhere you will know it is an elephant, and
an angry one at that
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--Elissa-- rofl
--bluelight-- i think most people who believe in God have a Knowing that he is
more than they can perceive .. should this fact cause them to stop
communicating in the way they feel they can?
--WhiteTiger-- where ya gonna put yer tiny hands hat will tell ya it's an
elephant? if ya can't see the whole thing, ya never get more than the bit ya
got hold of at the moment
--RevRandy-- not at all blue -- I only worry about the people who say they
have a concrete, discrete knowledge of God -- and nothing else is possible
--bluelight-- ok .. how do u get to know someone .. by talking to them right?
--bluelight-- why is this any different than with God? .. sure it changes
because u grow and your
--bluelight-- conversations grow with God etc etc .. your relationship
evolves.. this make any sense?
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--Elissa-- blue, if it makes sense to you then that's all that matters :)
--RevRandy-- if we allow the conversation to evolve, for us to evolve, and for
the divine to evolve, then yes
--bluelight-- well if spirituality is so complicated i think we're the ones
who make it so
--RevRandy-- Folks, it is approaching the end of our time together -- for
those who have not been there yet, I commend our website -
www.spiritualpersistence.com
--Shari-- I agree bluelight
--RevRandy-- next week we will be back with a discussion of "Living and
Enjoying", as one of the areas of the Points to Ponder from Rikkity
--RevRandy-- I assume it will be lively and enjoyable
--Elissa-- thank you all for being here tonight and sharing your perspectives,
because we are all part of the divine!
--TF88-- Randy and E...want to let you know I'll be missing the next 2 weeks
--RevRandy-- thank you all, merci,
--Elissa-- and here's the rainbow song
--RevRandy-- we will miss you TF
--Elissa-- awwwww TF we'll miss you :(
--TF88-- I'll miss you too :)
--bluelight-- thanks to u Elissa Rev Randy Rickitty !!!
--Elissa-- but wish you a wonderful concert tour!
--RevRandy-- yw
--TF88-- thanks Elissa :)
--Hypernoodle-- night :)
[SOUND]
* Playing txplay20.mrc to #SpiritualPersistence with 50ms delay
--Elissa-- 0,6!Elissa rainbow.mid 6,0 :o)
--WhiteTiger-- have fun, tf :)
--TF88-- goodnight everyone...thanks all
*** TF88 has quit IRC (QUIT: With wisdom comes calmness. With calmness comes
wisdom. )
--bluelight-- nite all ..
* angelv : Goodnight everyone!
--RevRandy-- nite
* angelv gives everyone a Hug! ¸ø Hugs ø¸¸ø¤°`°`°¤ø¸¸ø Hugs ø¸¸ø¤°`°`°¤ø¸
Hugs ¸ø¤°`°`°¤ø¸ Hugs ¸ø¤°`°`°¤ø¸ Hugs ¸ø¤°`°`°¤ø¸ Hugs ¸ø¤°`°`°¤ø¸ Hugs
¸ø¤°`°
--WhiteTiger-- thx RR, Elissa :) another good one
* Shari hands nobody in particular a single Red Rose! @-}--}----
Session Close: Sun Sep 24 23:10:38 2000