log101500

Session Start: Sun Oct 15 20:48:05 2000
*** Now talking in #SpiritualPersistence
*** Topic is ' 2,4~ Next 2,7Topic: 2,8"Learning and Remembering" 2,9Sunday 2,11October 15 0,12at 9pm 2,13EDT ~ 0,2Hosted by Rev. Dr. Randolph Becker & Elissa Bishop Becker, M.Ed. (and Rikkity). URL: www.spiritualpersistence.com '

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RevRandy . . . .hello TF
RevRandy . . . .welcome back
Elissa . . . .((((((TF)))))) welcome home!!!!!!!!!!
TF88 . . . .hi
TF88 . . . .thank you elissa!
RevRandy . . . .Well, I think it is time to get started
Elissa . . . .we have great stuff for tonight... maybe just for you :)
RevRandy . . . .Do we have any newcomers here tonight? ..... yes, I know, we are all new all the time
TF88 . . . .I'm sick, with fever...so can't be sure I'll be "all here"
RevRandy . . . .o dear ....
Elissa . . . .o no! sorry you're not feeling well
TF88 . . . .I'll put on my thinking cap though
RevRandy . . . .not being "all here" has never stopped me .... as far as I know, anyway
Elissa . . . .if you have to leave it's fine... we'll just talk amongst ourselves lol
TF88 . . . .lol
TF88 . . . .ok E
Elissa . . . .hahaha that's true
RevRandy . . . .pass TF the Ginger Ale ...
TF88 . . . .tea please :)
Elissa . . . .so, let's go randy
* Elissa makes tf some raspberry tea with turbinado sugar
RevRandy . . . .OK -

RevRandy . . . .let's bless our space here in cyber land
RevRandy . . . .with our usual words of invocation
RevRandy . . . . 0,2May we be connected to all things loving
RevRandy . . . . 0,2Protected from all things evil
RevRandy . . . . 0,2And guided in all ways gracious.
RevRandy . . . .Namaste
Elissa . . . .amen~
TF88 . . . .peace
RevRandy . . . .Well, tonight we are thinking about the third strand of the SP rainbow -
RevRandy . . . .The yellow category of
RevRandy . . . .Learning
RevRandy . . . .AND
RevRandy . . . .Remembering
RevRandy . . . .Which I have found to be one of the amazing areas of thought in SP
RevRandy . . . .(aren't they all ....)
Elissa . . . .yep :)
RevRandy . . . .in that it opened up for me how much I have learned, only to have to learn it all over again
RevRandy . . . .because I did not remember it
Elissa . . . .lol
Elissa . . . .what did you say?
RevRandy . . . .huh?
RevRandy . . . .when I first heard this set of words from Rikkity,
RevRandy . . . .I thought hard about it, and then
RevRandy . . . .thought I knew all that it said.
RevRandy . . . .But Noooooooooooooooooo
Elissa . . . .that doesn't happen
RevRandy . . . .She keeps bringing us more material
RevRandy . . . .more to learn and more to remember
RevRandy . . . .so, Elissa and I have, from the many PtoPs on this topic, both posted and unposted,
RevRandy . . . .chosen a few which speak to our own selves,
RevRandy . . . .and share them to see where they will take us collectively
RevRandy . . . .Are we ready for that trip? Any questions first?
Elissa . . . .are we there yet?
TF88 . . . .ready
RevRandy . . . .OK
RevRandy . . . . 2,8"So, listen up. People keep hoping they will get all of the picture at once
RevRandy . . . . 2,8and then there'll be no more learning and remembering crap.
RevRandy . . . . 2,8But it is all evolutionary.
RevRandy . . . . 2,8So you get some now and some more later--
RevRandy . . . . 2,8which really means if you got it all now you wouldn't know what to do with it.
RevRandy . . . . 2,8Just look at what we've done to those who even have a glimpse more:
RevRandy . . . . 2,8crucify, hang, kill, ignore.
RevRandy . . . . 2,8But if you are sharp you will see this presents a problem, a conundrum, a paradox.
RevRandy . . . . 2,8If we living now have more of the picture than someone who lived 2000 BCE,
RevRandy . . . . 2,8then if they became whole and moved on and we become whole and move on,
RevRandy . . . . 2,8we will know more than they so how could we move on to the same next level of complexity.
RevRandy . . . . 2,8Yeah, how could we.
RevRandy . . . . 2,8But this is if we take knowledge as the measuring stick and not as the measuring schtick.
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RevRandy . . . .hello Sharross
sharross . . . .Hi Rev
Elissa . . . .((((((sharr)))))) hey sweetie!
TF88 . . . .hi sharross :)
sharross . . . .Hey E - how ya doing !!
sharross . . . .Hi TF
Elissa . . . .great! i'm glad to see you!
sharross . . . .Nice to be here thanks- been much too long
TF88 . . . .how about running that PtoP for sharross?
RevRandy . . . .We were just beginning to look at a PtoP
sharross . . . .great
RevRandy . . . .so, I will go back and start over
sharross . . . .ty
RevRandy . . . . 2,8"So, listen up. People keep hoping they will get all of the picture at once
RevRandy . . . . 2,8and then there'll be no more learning and remembering crap.
RevRandy . . . . 2,8But it is all evolutionary.
RevRandy . . . . 2,8So you get some now and some more later--
RevRandy . . . . 2,8which really means if you got it all now you wouldn't know what to do with it.
RevRandy . . . . 2,8Just look at what we've done to those who even have a glimpse more:
RevRandy . . . . 2,8crucify, hang, kill, ignore.
RevRandy . . . . 2,8But if you are sharp you will see this presents a problem, a conundrum, a paradox.
RevRandy . . . . 2,8If we living now have more of the picture than someone who lived 2000 BCE,
RevRandy . . . . 2,8then if they became whole and moved on and we become whole and move on,
RevRandy . . . . 2,8we will know more than they so how could we move on to the same next level of complexity.
RevRandy . . . . 2,8Yeah, how could we.
RevRandy . . . . 2,8But this is if we take knowledge as the measuring stick and not as the measuring schtick.
RevRandy . . . . 2,8
RevRandy . . . .I want to stop mid Point to think about this .... if the process is about fulfilling ourselves
RevRandy . . . .and we now have much more sophisticated means of understanding ourselves
RevRandy . . . .then won't we do a better job at it
RevRandy . . . .than did someone of many centuries ago?
RevRandy . . . .What do you think?

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RevRandy . . . .hello everyone!
firespirit . . . .Hi!
Elissa . . . .welcome everyone :)
Cathy . . . .Hello
RevRandy . . . .we are in the middle of a discussion of a seemingly simple question
firespirit . . . .k
RevRandy . . . .If the process and meaning of life
RevRandy . . . .is about fulfilling ourselves,
RevRandy . . . .and we now know much more about many things than did those who lived long ago
RevRandy . . . .does this mean that we can do a "better" job of it than they did
RevRandy . . . .Can we learn what we need to learn and remember better now?
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RevRandy . . . .welcome
Elissa . . . .hi angelv and JG :)
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angelv . . . .Hello all
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Elissa . . . .any responses to randy's question?
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TF88 . . . .we learn perhaps differently, not necessarily better
RevRandy . . . .TF - want to say more?
firespirit . . . .didn't know it was a question..usually we listen..
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Elissa . . . .this is a discussion, firespirit... please feel free to jump in at any point
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RevRandy . . . .sure, it is a mid Point to Ponder question
firespirit . . . .ok...thanks..
RevRandy . . . .Let me prime the pump a but with some more from Rikkity
RevRandy . . . . 2,8"I give you this example.
RevRandy . . . . 2,8There's a wall to be painted.
RevRandy . . . . 2,8I give you paint and a 1-inch brush.
RevRandy . . . . 2,8You paint the wall.
RevRandy . . . . 2,8It takes days, but it gets painted.
RevRandy . . . . 2,8So, you move on to other things, having successfully painted the wall.
RevRandy . . . . 2,8About 1000 years later, someone comes to paint the same wall
RevRandy . . . . 2,8and they are given paint and a sprayer and are done in one hour
RevRandy . . . . 2,8and can move on to other things, having successfully painted the wall.
RevRandy . . . . 2,8So, did they do the same thing, yes.
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RevRandy . . . . 2,8Just because you have more or better tools does not mean you learn more or less.
RevRandy . . . . 2,8It is still the same task.
RevRandy . . . . 2,8And unless you see having a few more lives as a punishment, then what's the difference.
RevRandy . . . . 2,8Ultimately, when all is shared that can be understood at this level,
RevRandy . . . . 2,8passages through this will be quicker
RevRandy . . . . 2,8--but not necessarily easier--
RevRandy . . . . 2,8and there will be no difference in the learning.
RevRandy . . . . 2,8Remember, if time is an illusion, who cares about how long it takes.
RevRandy . . . . 2,8 2,8And efficient meaningful progress is what gets us along, not the specific tools.
RevRandy . . . . 2,8Got it.
RevRandy . . . . 2,8And if you get a break by dealing with this all after some great exemplars have lived...
RevRandy . . . . 2,8hey, you get a break.
RevRandy . . . . 2,8But if the path from differentiation to connection is infinite,
RevRandy . . . . 2,8then it doesn't matter how long a stage is.
RevRandy . . . . 2,8
RevRandy . . . . 2,8"So, accept the new insights as welcome, handy tools to your spiritual development;
RevRandy . . . . 2,8but not as a means to avoid it or substitute for it.
RevRandy . . . . 2,8You still gotta get it right and whole and integrated.
RevRandy . . . . 2,8And guess what.
RevRandy . . . . 2,8People, more often than not, get new tools and then use them wrong and the process takes longer.
RevRandy . . . . 2,8For example, to see anyone else as one's savior would be to miss the point;
RevRandy . . . . 2,8and so, one whole life would be spent standing still.
RevRandy . . . . 2,8Just because it has been
RevRandy . . . . 2,8Just because it has been given and is available doesn't mean it will help.
RevRandy . . . . 2,8Deep enough? So let's leave it at that." (8/5/99 - Y#36)
RevRandy . . . .So, here is the full point we are thinking of
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Elissa . . . .for those who are new here, the quotes you see in color are from our daughter in spirit, Rikkity
firespirit . . . .ok..thanks..
RevRandy . . . .and our usual methodology
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Elissa . . . .hi sanantu :)
RevRandy . . . .is to share these, Elissa and I offer some opening comments, and then we discuss it freely
Cathy . . . .I am new here. A little lost
RevRandy . . . .if you have any questions, you can pm either Elissa or me
wistful . . . .me too
Sanantu . . . .Hi Elissa*s*
Elissa . . . .cathy, we are discussing Rikkity's messages... join in or just listen
RevRandy . . . .OK, Elissa - better run the intro ... it will help y'all know what is happening
Elissa . . . .i was just thinking the same thing :)
Elissa . . . .i'll go get it
firespirit . . . .that would be helpful..thanks!
wistful . . . .:) yes
Elissa . . . .RevRandy has been a Unitarian Universalist minister for
Elissa . . . .almost 30 years, with a thriving congregation in
Elissa . . . .Williamsburg, VA.
Elissa . . . .I am a writer, medium, and counselor with
Elissa . . . .a Masters degree (M.Ed.) in Community Counseling.
Elissa . . . .My and RevRandy's daughter, Ericka (now known as Rikkity in spirit)
Elissa . . . .died in an automobile collision with a drunk driver
Elissa . . . .on August 20, 1995.
Elissa . . . .She was 20 years old, and going into
Elissa . . . .her junior year at Yale. 8 days after her death, RevRandy
Elissa . . . .and I began communicating with her.
Elissa . . . .Spiritual Persistence is Rikkity's name for the
Elissa . . . .wisdom she has shared with us in the form of Points to
Elissa . . . .Ponder.
Elissa . . . .It is a unique vision of the nature of spiritual
Elissa . . . .and physical existence, of the continuity between life
Elissa . . . .and death, of connection, and of our place in the universe.
Elissa . . . .And it is guidance we follow that has helped us to learn,
Elissa . . . .to heal from grief, and to live better lives. We are here to
Elissa . . . .share this wisdom with you and to explore what it means
Elissa . . . .to you personally, as we learn from one another on this journey.
Elissa . . . .If you have any further questions, please feel free to
Elissa . . . .private message (pm) anyone with an "@" in front of their name
Elissa . . . .or email Randy (RevRandy@spiritualpersistence.com)
Elissa . . . .or me (ebb@spiritualpersistence.com) any time. Please let us know
Elissa . . . .if you would like to be on our email list. Thanks for coming...
Elissa . . . .and again, welcome!
Elissa . . . .*
firespirit . . . .:)
Elissa . . . .i hope that helps :)
Cathy . . . .I lost my son on 8/24/2000 from diabetes complications and while I feel I have had some ADC's, I do not feel him near me and this is my worse grief not knowing if he is okay?
RevRandy . . . .(((((((((((((Cathy)))))))))))))
Elissa . . . .((((((cathy)))))) it's you who are not ok, but he is well
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RevRandy . . . .Maybe some of what we discuss will be helpful to you in your desire to know an answer to your questions
Cathy . . . .I miss his physical presence.
Elissa . . . .of course you do, cathy
RevRandy . . . .I can relate to that!
Elissa . . . .cathy, there are some helpful thoughts from Rikkity about grief on our website on this page: http://www.spiritualpersistence.com/gda.htm
Veronica . . . .ME 2 Cathy.. my son died 9-13-00... miss his touch, smiles, just talking to him.. I can relate to how you feel
RevRandy . . . .((((((((((((((Veronica))))))))
Cathy . . . .I think about the last weeks and I believe the outcome of any decisions we made would have been the same. John was to pass away on 8/24/2000.
Elissa . . . .o veronica, i'm so sorry
RevRandy . . . .The "what if" games do not take us anywhere that will be useful, IMHO
Cathy . . . .I prayed and prayed for him to be healed, but he left me anyway and my faith was hurt and am trying to get it back
RevRandy . . . .Our first question, which we will consider by looking at a Point to Ponder together
RevRandy . . . .is
RevRandy . . . .Does which spiritual path we take make a difference in how quickly we evolve?
firespirit . . . .RevRandy I would think which path we choose effect the out come..
Sanantu . . . .Cathy...I feel with YOU.....I miss my daughter too soo much....her warm hugs and smiles! She passed away last year in the age of 19.
wistful . . . .my son passed 10/19/99 does he know how much I love and miss him? and sorry I could not get him home in time?
RevRandy . . . .firespirit - yes,
Cathy . . . .I think our paths in lives are predetermined before conception. God knows our plan for life.
Cathy . . . .Therefore, I am not sure we can change our path.
RevRandy . . . .the path we choose may lead us in other ways, but will it hasten our spiritual evolution
RevRandy . . . .let's look at what Rikkity said to us about this:
firespirit . . . .I spent some time upset and all it did was slow my spiritual life down...I was angry with "God"!
Elissa . . . .maybe that was a lesson you needed to learn, firespirit
Cathy . . . .I too, was very angry with God.
firespirit . . . .Yes..I believe it was...
Elissa . . . .then it wasn't time wasted or slowed down
RevRandy . . . .Often we get lessons to learn that we did not think we needed to learn
firespirit . . . .It felt like it was at the time..when I look back now..
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RevRandy . . . .our theme for this evening is Learning and Remembering
Elissa . . . .hey nancy :)
RevRandy . . . .which is Rikkity's way to remind us that until we really remember what we need to know to be whole, we will keep learning it over and over again, in many different ways
NancyM . . . .Helloooooooo !!!!!!
firespirit . . . .for each lifetime...or now?
RevRandy . . . .Here's Rikkity herself:
RevRandy . . . . 2,8"So, listen up. People keep hoping they will get all of the picture at once
RevRandy . . . . 2,8and then there'll be no more learning and remembering crap.
RevRandy . . . . 2,8But it is all evolutionary.
RevRandy . . . . 2,8So you get some now and some more later--
RevRandy . . . . 2,8which really means if you got it all now you wouldn't know what to do with it.
RevRandy . . . . 2,8Just look at what we've done to those who even have a glimpse more:
RevRandy . . . . 2,8crucify, hang, kill, ignore.
RevRandy . . . . 2,8But if you are sharp you will see this presents a problem, a conundrum, a paradox.
RevRandy . . . . 2,8If we living now have more of the picture than someone who lived 2000 BCE,
RevRandy . . . . 2,8then if they became whole and moved on and we become whole and move on,
RevRandy . . . . 2,8we will know more than they so how could we move on to the same next level of complexity.
RevRandy . . . . 2,8Yeah, how could we.
RevRandy . . . . 2,8But this is if we take knowledge as the measuring stick and not as the measuring schtick.
RevRandy . . . . 2,8
RevRandy . . . . 2,8"I give you this example.
RevRandy . . . . 2,8There's a wall to be painted.
RevRandy . . . . 2,8I give you paint and a 1-inch brush.
RevRandy . . . . 2,8You paint the wall.
RevRandy . . . . 2,8It takes days, but it gets painted.
RevRandy . . . . 2,8So, you move on to other things, having successfully painted the wall.
RevRandy . . . . 2,8About 1000 years later, someone comes to paint the same wall
RevRandy . . . . 2,8and they are given paint and a sprayer and are done in one hour
RevRandy . . . . 2,8and can move on to other things, having successfully painted the wall.
RevRandy . . . . 2,8So, did they do the same thing, yes.
RevRandy . . . . 2,8Just because you have more or better tools does not mean you learn more or less.
RevRandy . . . . 2,8It is still the same task.
RevRandy . . . . 2,8And unless you see having a few more lives as a punishment, then what's the difference.
RevRandy . . . . 2,8Ultimately, when all is shared that can be understood at this level,
RevRandy . . . . 2,8passages through this will be quicker
RevRandy . . . . 2,8--but not necessarily easier--
RevRandy . . . . 2,8and there will be no difference in the learning.
RevRandy . . . . 2,8Remember, if time is an illusion, who cares about how long it takes.
RevRandy . . . . 2,8 2,8And efficient meaningful progress is what gets us along, not the specific tools.
RevRandy . . . . 2,8Got it.
RevRandy . . . . 2,8And if you get a break by dealing with this all after some great exemplars have lived...
RevRandy . . . . 2,8hey, you get a break.
RevRandy . . . . 2,8But if the path from differentiation to connection is infinite,
RevRandy . . . . 2,8then it doesn't matter how long a stage is.
RevRandy . . . . 2,8
RevRandy . . . . 2,8"So, accept the new insights as welcome, handy tools to your spiritual development;
RevRandy . . . . 2,8but not as a means to avoid it or substitute for it.
RevRandy . . . . 2,8You still gotta get it right and whole and integrated.
RevRandy . . . . 2,8And guess what.
RevRandy . . . . 2,8People, more often than not, get new tools and then use them wrong and the process takes longer.
RevRandy . . . . 2,8For example, to see anyone else as one's savior would be to miss the point;
RevRandy . . . . 2,8and so, one whole life would be spent standing still.
RevRandy . . . . 2,8Just because it has been given and is available doesn't mean it will help.
RevRandy . . . . 2,8Deep enough? So let's leave it at that." (8/5/99 - Y#36)
wistful . . . .so we have no choice? we are just pawns in all of this thing called life?
Elissa . . . .o no, wistful! not at all!
RevRandy . . . .Quite the contrary -- we are presented opportunities all the time to learn and remember what we need in order to be spiritually fulfilled
RevRandy . . . .to be able to move on to more complex spiritual existence
wistful . . . .but if we are to come back over and over do we have the right to say no more?
Elissa . . . .we can always choose to reject the opportunities that are offered to us
Cymru . . . .Every experience is an opportunity, and if you miss it once, then you are given the opportunity again
Elissa . . . .but we delay or short-circuit our spiritual evolution if we do
RevRandy . . . .life is a complex existence, and in looking at the specifics we often miss the overall pattern
Cathy . . . .But I believe that even if we reject opportunities, it is the plan for us.
Elissa . . . .yes, cymru
Elissa . . . .ok cathy
wistful . . . .hope it gets better then this then:(
Elissa . . . .let me give you some more to ponder:
Cathy . . . .I just hope the loss of my son was not a spiritual lesson because it took my spiritual beliefs back 25 years.
Elissa . . . .it does, wistful... just remember that it's not what happens to us that's important, but how we deal with it
firespirit . . . .I believe my dad's death was spiritual growth for me...now i can see it was not bad..
Elissa . . . .and here's another PtoP:
Elissa . . . . 2,8"Learning and remembering is never understood in a solitary context, but
Elissa . . . . 2,8only as a necessary sum total of the entity-to-be. You don't get it just to
Elissa . . . . 2,8make yourself whole, but to be a fitting part of the entity that is more
Elissa . . . . 2,8complex. So you may need to learn and remember some things which seem
Elissa . . . . 2,8foreign to the 'you' you know as you, but which fit the 'them' you will
Elissa . . . . 2,8become.
Elissa . . . . 2,8
Elissa . . . . 2,8"Nothing of value is ever extraneous, even if it currently appears so. But,
Elissa . . . . 2,8if you only get what you think you want or need and don't stay open to it
Elissa . . . . 2,8all, you will serve yourself but disserve the future--which ultimately
Elissa . . . . 2,8disserves you. So, live without boundaries or expectations of what life
Elissa . . . . 2,8should teach you. If you truly live and enjoy, then take all that comes and
Elissa . . . . 2,8try to learn and remember; and what seems outside of what you think is you
Elissa . . . . 2,8will become part of you when you are part of something more. That's it.
Elissa . . . . 2,8
Elissa . . . . 2,8"Don't make value judgments... not until later--which means not 'later,' but
Elissa . . . . 2,8at a level of more complex understanding. Like the stuff that seems stupid
Elissa . . . . 2,8when you begin to read but which later lets you read Camus and Voltaire and
Elissa . . . . 2,8me. Hey, a comma isn't worth much until you understand subordinate ideas. So
Elissa . . . . 2,8all your learnings and rememberings become resources, even if not tools,
Elissa . . . . 2,8today.
Elissa . . . . 2,8
Elissa . . . . 2,8"Papa found teaching flying to deaf people hard. They don't know how to
Elissa . . . . 2,8listen, and just like spiritually deaf people who have one experience that
Elissa . . . . 2,8opens their souls but they don't know how to listen to the messages and
Elissa . . . . 2,8instructions that follow. It takes something to hear physically and
Elissa . . . . 2,8spiritually, and it takes something more to really listen and learn and
Elissa . . . . 2,8remember. Some of the most unreliable people spiritually are those who have
Elissa . . . . 2,8only begun to hear, because they don't know how to listen. Ponder that.
Elissa . . . . 2,8
Elissa . . . . 2,8"It's like learning a foreign language. Learn one word and then when you
Elissa . . . . 2,8listen to a conversation you pick out that word and say you understand but
Elissa . . . . 2,8hey, you miss all the rest. One word from 90 languages does not a polyglot
Elissa . . . . 2,8make. Programmed dolls can do that. Ponder that." (9/26/99 - Y#38)
Cathy . . . .Now I must believe more in the spiritual existence to see my son again and I am so torn
Elissa . . . .so, how do we know what is important for us to learn and remember?
Elissa . . . .it seems the short answer is "we don't"
Cymru . . . .Elissa, I think "gut instinct" will clue us in to what is important to remember
Elissa . . . .instinct is something i was going to talk about later, cymru :)
Cathy . . . .I agree. If what we remember makes us better than it was worth remembering and using.
TF88 . . . .isn't everything we experience important to remember?
Cymru . . . .laff
Cathy . . . .Yes - that makes up who we are
Elissa . . . .opportunities for learning come our way constantly, and if you're like
Elissa . . . .me you tend to be selective about what you pay attention to...
Elissa . . . .we don't have the time or energy to get off at every exit along the
Elissa . . . .spiritual highway!
Elissa . . . .but when we're selective, we may miss a piece of what will give us one of
Elissa . . . .those "aha" moments in the future...
NancyM . . . .oh my thank u so ! I have a deaf child and see the reality of certain knowings
Elissa . . . .unless we're absolutely sure we know
Elissa . . . .what the pieces are, we can't be absolutely sure of what we need to learn...
Cathy . . . .But I think life makes it that we do. I was very spiritual and prayed for my son and he was taken. That was not the path I expected from the Lord
Elissa . . . .we need to be intentional (or more intentional) about listening to the
Elissa . . . .whole conversation--not just the parts we recognize or are comfortable with
RevRandy . . . .amen
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Elissa . . . .or agree with... and then later we may find that we have learned something
NancyM . . . .amen
Elissa . . . .we thought was superfluous or trivial or useless, and that learning has
Elissa . . . .allowed us to make a connection to a larger understanding.
Elissa . . . .ok, that's my pondering... what are your thoughts about this?
RevRandy . . . .I think it is very hard, when we are in the middle of an experience, to know what it will mean to us when we have moved through it
NancyM . . . .I grok it {giggle}
sharross . . . .But if we do by-pass one of the exits we should have taken (as you put it) - They does appear again and again until we decide to finally take it
TF88 . . . .that is true randy, however we can still listen intently
firespirit . . . .depends on what the experience is...
Elissa . . . .yes, sharr... or something similar
RevRandy . . . .yes - listen intently --- but know that from inside it may not sound the same as it will later
Elissa . . . .depends, firespirit?
NancyM . . . .the points of light once u have been there become clearer and clearer is my thought
firespirit . . . .you mean to say that we are causing the stuff to happen because we are not remembering who we are?
TF88 . . . .right randy...listen without categorizing
Elissa . . . .our experience, i believe, is always an interaction between who we are and what the universe provides
RevRandy . . . .and if some experience keeps coming up in our life, it is not that we are creating it, but that we are choosing to relate to it again and again, for some reason of our own
Elissa . . . .for a reason, or because that's who we are
RevRandy . . . .being who we are is reason enough
NancyM . . . .yes !
NancyM . . . .I am that I AM
RevRandy . . . .in our search for who we can become
RevRandy . . . .the idea that it is not just about being who we are (what we know about ourselves already) but about becoming fulfilled in all that we might be (what we have yet to know about ourselves)
NancyM . . . .thaz awesome Rev
RevRandy . . . .I have to say that this evening, with some of the comments and sharings from people in this chat room, I am mindful of one big learning I had in the process of loss
RevRandy . . . .and it was not where I expected my life would take me
RevRandy . . . .when our daughter died, I thought that this was a lesson I could have done without
firespirit . . . .Yes..I understand that one...mine went crazy for a bit..
RevRandy . . . .but over time (and with help from Rikkity) I came to see that it was not, for me, about learning to deal with death,
RevRandy . . . .but to understand hope .... not a hope in a specific outcome but a hope that on the other side of anything there can be meaning,
RevRandy . . . .and often meaning in ways that I could not have seen and learned before passing through the experience
NancyM . . . .ahhhhhh
NancyM . . . .indeed
RevRandy . . . .I could not learn what I needed to know without that passage, even though I thought I did not need to learn about the passage of profound loss
Elissa . . . .((((((randy))))))
firespirit . . . .profound loss is a great way too phrase it..
NancyM . . . .{{{{{{rev}}}}}}}}
NancyM . . . .{[[[[[[[[fs]]]]]]]]]]]]]
RevRandy . . . .and on that note.... Elissa and I need to take a short break (about 10 minutes) ... but we will be back for more on this subject --- stay and chat
Elissa . . . .lots more!!!
NancyM . . . .KEWL
firespirit . . . .ok..thanks
Elissa . . . .bbbbbbbbbbbrrrrrrrrreeeeeeeeeeeaaaaaaaaaaaaaaakkkkkkkkkkk

RevRandy . . . .well, we are back, and while we wait for the popcorn
RevRandy . . . .we can move on into our thoughts for this evening
RevRandy . . . .OK?
TF88 . . . .ok
Elissa . . . .yep
firespirit . . . .cool!
NancyM . . . .ok gots the pop
NancyM . . . .: }
firespirit . . . .pepsi please....
NancyM . . . .rofl
RevRandy . . . .well, here is another PtoP
RevRandy . . . . 2,8"We will consider the quantum mechanics of spiritual knowledge.
RevRandy . . . . 2,8it ain't linear, baby.
RevRandy . . . . 2,8And we ask and answer the question of how come we seem to exist at one level of understanding for a long time
RevRandy . . . . 2,8and then suddenly we are at another level without any seeming flow between the two.
RevRandy . . . . 2,8And what seemed so true suddenly seems so ridiculous.
RevRandy . . . . 2,8
RevRandy . . . . 2,8"Hint: The ancients knew and called it 'the straw that broke the camel's back.'
RevRandy . . . . 2,8One little thing added to a system already stressed but unchanged can profoundly change the whole system.
RevRandy . . . . 2,8That's why some people encounter a death and seem so strong,
RevRandy . . . . 2,8and then a week later a shirt button will reduce them to tears.
RevRandy . . . . 2,8 2,8
RevRandy . . . . 2,8"It's the same with growth.
RevRandy . . . . 2,8You store all this learning and remembering, which does not change you
RevRandy . . . . 2,8and then one wee wittle thingie happens and all of it falls into place.
RevRandy . . . . 2,8And you say 'Where did all that come from' or 'Why didn't I put that together before.'
RevRandy . . . . 2,8Because it took a certain spiritual awareness to do it.
RevRandy . . . . 2,8Actually, a certain sum of spiritual awarenesses." (10/4/99 - Y#39)
RevRandy . . . .I chose this PtoP because it reflects an issue I hear about from many people
RevRandy . . . .they ask me if I can help them know what they need to know in order to be spiritually fulfilled
RevRandy . . . .And they relate how this person or that book or some experience
RevRandy . . . .showed how someone else did it
RevRandy . . . .and they want to know if that is all they have to do.
firespirit . . . .I don't think this..we are all on our own journey..
Elissa . . . .very wise, fs
RevRandy . . . .Yes, we are on our own journey ....
firespirit . . . .I cannot tell some one how to find their "God".
RevRandy . . . .And one person's answer is just another person's question
NancyM . . . .ditto FS
RevRandy . . . .And sometimes we even mistake our own answers --
firespirit . . . .I found my light one way and may not be the same way for my husband..
RevRandy . . . .after a long process of spiritual searching we may finally "get it" after reading a certain book
RevRandy . . . .and think it was the book that made the big difference
firespirit . . . .which book is that? Or doesn't matter?
RevRandy . . . .but later we look at the book again and not see it (doesn't matter what book)
RevRandy . . . .because what that book did was just trigger the whole, amassed treasury of learning we had from many experiences.
RevRandy . . . .So often people mistake the triggering event for the process, the long process, of learning some much more.
firespirit . . . .I look to nature for answers myself...I read too..but nature tells alot if you listen to it.
RevRandy . . . .Yes, nature tell us so much. Emerson felt that nature held the keys to understanding all
Elissa . . . .listening tells you a lot :)
firespirit . . . .I love it!!
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RevRandy . . . .Yes, Elissa -- that is a good question --- is it that nature has more to say, or that when we chose to make nature our medium of meaning, we listen to is more intently than we do other things
Elissa . . . .there are many paths and much to listen to and everyone has their own source of listening
RevRandy . . . .Or in another setting -- some people, in life-transforming potentialities, say "this can't be happening to me" while others say "what can I learn from this?"
Elissa . . . .hi sherry :)
firespirit . . . .Yes..nature is my method...where I find comfort..not for everyone..
sherry . . . .good evening all
RevRandy . . . .but what happens when the source we have chosen for our focus does not meet what we see as our needs?
firespirit . . . .I don't know? I am not at that point...
TF88 . . . .then we need to be open to changing our point of focus
firespirit . . . .good answer
Elissa . . . .good answer, tf :)
Elissa . . . .lol
RevRandy . . . .I ask that because many people come to me feeling like their belief system has let them down
RevRandy . . . . - like it TF
firespirit . . . .Not me....took me along time to find my source....and don't want to lose it!!!
Elissa . . . .it's a 2-way street
Elissa . . . .maybe they've let their belief system down lol
firespirit . . . .could be...
firespirit . . . .is a two way relationship..
Elissa . . . .yes, fs, always
RevRandy . . . .we may be asking our belief system to be something other than what it is
firespirit . . . .If I stop having a relationship with "God" I am to blame really...
firespirit . . . .If I stop having communication with my husband our relationship goes bad..same thing..
RevRandy . . . .we can never exist separate from all-that-is, although we may pretend we are separated, or alienated
Elissa . . . .at least partially... it may mean that you need to widen or shift your perspective
firespirit . . . .yes
Elissa . . . .not an easy thing to do
firespirit . . . .not always easy...
RevRandy . . . .just as it may be a problem to imply to much onto a belief system .... assuming the quantum change is its single doing ... we may also imply too little onto it, and fail to open ourselves to all that may come
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Elissa . . . .hi russ :)
Elissa . . . .randy could you expand on that or give us an example
russ . . . .hello elissa
RevRandy . . . .This notion, from Rikkity, of how we reach an accumulation of learning and remembering that "puts us over the top", helps me to see that it is not just the favorites or last items that is important, but the sum total of all that it took to get us there
RevRandy . . . .an example?????
RevRandy . . . .hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm
RevRandy . . . .sure!
* Elissa ducking
firespirit . . . .LOL!
RevRandy . . . .First, for the idea that we put too much onto our belief system:
RevRandy . . . .when a person decides to see that belief system as offering up only what will be desired .... we expect it will bring us only "good"
RevRandy . . . .and when we put too little onto it:
RevRandy . . . .when we don't allow ourselves the faith to see the system out to its conclusion ... and my favorite familiar example of that
RevRandy . . . .is when the Israelites had left Egypt, and were at the side of the Red Sea
RevRandy . . . .and seeing the Egyptians closing in, they suddenly turned in their beliefs
RevRandy . . . .and were ready reject it all -- they did not believe strongly enough in what was possible
Elissa . . . .how about when people expect that all they need to do is believe and all that they desire will follow... that is certainly too much to ask of any system i think
RevRandy . . . .yes -- it is
Elissa . . . .good examples, rr... thank you
RevRandy . . . .yw
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Elissa . . . .ok, here's another PtoP and i will give it to you in 2 sections along with my thoughts:
firespirit . . . .k
Elissa . . . . 2,8"Can you remember and then learn... hmmm. And the answer is: Yes, if it is a
Elissa . . . . 2,8learning from another life that you suddenly remember and then in this life
Elissa . . . . 2,8learn. Some flashes of insight are just that--finally getting it. Your
Elissa . . . . 2,8entity experienced it but did not integrate it until, suddenly, poof. And
Elissa . . . . 2,8you think, ‘Where did that come from.' Some things are true revelations and
Elissa . . . . 2,8some are just delayed reactions. And since time does not matter, both become
Elissa . . . . 2,8part of the fabric of your spirit as if one and the same.
Elissa . . . . 2,8
Elissa . . . .can we remember and then learn? to me, this speaks not only of rememberings
Elissa . . . .from past lives, but of what we call intuition and instinct...
Elissa . . . .when we just
Elissa . . . ."know" something without being able to recall learning it, how does that
firespirit . . . .I have had this happen....
Elissa . . . .happen? doesn't that imply that the learning took place at some point in
Elissa . . . .our past? or maybe not...
NancyM . . . .trooooo
Elissa . . . .maybe sometimes we can remember without EVER having
Elissa . . . .learned... sometimes the pieces of the puzzle just fall together in way that
NancyM . . . .maybe
Elissa . . . .is totally unexpected, and that's when we get true revelations... i suspect
Elissa . . . .that we might be able to tell the difference though...
Elissa . . . .wouldn't the true
Elissa . . . .revelation point toward the future instead of the past or present--i'm
Elissa . . . .pondering that one :)
NancyM . . . .ahhhhhhhh epiphanys
Elissa . . . .what do you think?
TF88 . . . .by bringing the past into the present, it as a sum points toward the future
NancyM . . . .sudden knowing
russ . . . .spirit knows our moves before we do
Elissa . . . .does it always, tf?
TF88 . . . .no, not always....only if that is our attitude
Elissa . . . .yes, i agree
TF88 . . . .the potential is there
NancyM . . . .if time is non existent you cant have but now
russ . . . .could we be spirit beings having a human experience
Elissa . . . ."now" is a concept that comes from linear time lol
RevRandy . . . .russ -- I do think that is the case!
firespirit . . . .are you saying we are actually living these lives all at once?
russ . . . .yes
Elissa . . . .i think we are, russ... spirit and physical
NancyM . . . .right on FS
RevRandy . . . .but if there is no time, then knowing something before we do does not matter
Elissa . . . ."all at once" is a linear time concept too... but, yes, in a way we can't imagine
NancyM . . . .true rev
firespirit . . . .no wonder I am soooooo tired...hehe..
Elissa . . . .hahahahahaha
Elissa . . . .and you thought you were busy before!!!!!!!
NancyM . . . .lol
russ . . . .think about this,,,the past, present, and future all at once
RevRandy . . . .to me a revelation is something that widens our sphere of understanding, not just confirming what is already in that sphere
TF88 . . . .excellent point randy
Elissa . . . .yes
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NancyM . . . .I have ALWAYS thought time is also in the NOW
Elissa . . . .ok, here's the rest of that PtoP:
NancyM . . . .ok
Elissa . . . . 2,8"Hey, the man talked about it (JC)... yep, about it not mattering if you
Elissa . . . . 2,8came to the vineyard at noon or dusk. It was not about accepting him, but
Elissa . . . . 2,8about finding oneself. And here's the trick all the religious types forget:
Elissa . . . . 2,8When you are looking for something, where is it always. The last place you
Elissa . . . . 2,8look--because then you don't have to look anymore. Same with spiritual
Elissa . . . . 2,8fulfillment. What is the final thing you need to do to move on? Whatever you
Elissa . . . . 2,8learn and remember last before you move on. Was it the magic last step, yes
Elissa . . . . 2,8and no. It was the completing step but it was not the fulfilling step, since
Elissa . . . . 2,8all of it is the fulfillment and it could have been learned and remembered
Elissa . . . . 2,8in any order. No, focusing on the destination doesn't work. And thinking
Elissa . . . . 2,8there is only one path doesn't work." (10/10/2000)
Elissa . . . .so, according to Rikkity, there is no way to know what order the steps to
Elissa . . . .spiritual fulfillment are in...
Elissa . . . .there is no instruction book (or stone
Elissa . . . .tablet, for that matter) with neat little numbers and arrows to point the
Elissa . . . .way... is that thought a little scary?
NancyM . . . .: }
firespirit . . . .So we are actually sending messages back and fourth.....all the time..in what some call history?
Elissa . . . .how about this one: being aimed in a direction
Elissa . . . .is the only thing that's gonna get you there, and if the
Elissa . . . .direction is rigidly and narrowly defined it's gonna be a LONG trip!!!
Elissa . . . .but, if you stay open to whatever comes your way as you travel--even
Elissa . . . .some seeming detours and dead ends--what will open WITH you will be the
Elissa . . . .vistas you seek... and they may not look the way you expect them to,
Elissa . . . .and you may not arrive when you expect to, and you may not even know it
Elissa . . . .when you do arrive, but you WILL :)
Elissa . . . .those are my thoughts on this
russ . . . .like tuning in on a radio,,,once you hear the spirit,,,you will always know
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Elissa . . . .that's a wild thought, fs, isn't it... but why not?
Elissa . . . .hey marie :)
RevRandy . . . .fs - yes - we do find ourselves in a web we call time, but which is its own dimension
russ . . . .beautiful one too,,,can we get a transcript of this time
firespirit . . . .I have wild thoughts all the time..thought I would throw that one in...
RevRandy . . . .Transcript will be posted at our website (www.spiritualpersistence.com) later this week
Marie1 . . . .hi everyone
RevRandy . . . .hi Marie
firespirit . . . .Hi Marie!
Elissa . . . .russ, the log will posted on our site... or you can give me your email addy if i don't have it
NancyM . . . .I 2 must sleep a G'night...Peace to ALL : }
firespirit . . . .Here is my email to put me on your email list
russ . . . .OK, thanks ElIssa
RevRandy . . . .thanks for the popcorn
NancyM . . . .{{{{{{ELISSA}}}}}}
NancyM . . . .{{{{{{{REV}}}}}}
NancyM . . . .{{{{{{{{{ROOM}}}}}}
Elissa . . . .nite nancy-poo... love you!
NancyM . . . .love u all : }
Marie1 . . . .hi russ, nite nancy
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Elissa . . . .well, time which doesn't exist is running out lol.... so, any more ponderings on learning and remembering?
firespirit . . . .guess we have to live by time.....bummer...goodnight...
Marie1 . . . .nope, i need a mind to start remembering what i have learn
RevRandy . . . .I would suggest a private exercise for people to consider
firespirit . . . .k
Elissa . . . .homework! o no!
russ . . . .all in the re-remembering,,,the time is the end-time
firespirit . . . .LOL!
RevRandy . . . .think about what events/learnings seem to happen to you over and over
RevRandy . . . .ask yourself - what have I learned from them so far?
firespirit . . . .Love...Baby!
RevRandy . . . .and then put those answers away the next time the event/opportunity to learn comes again
RevRandy . . . .and see if you can find something new in the experience this time
russ . . . .nothing new under the sun, we will be here again and again to re-learn what it is to be one with the universe
RevRandy . . . .until we truly incorporate that understanding into our being
Elissa . . . .interesting thought, rr... look at our experience with new eyes, so to speak
firespirit . . . .yes
RevRandy . . . .yes - change the familiar focus (like sitting at a different place at the family Thanksgiving table)
firespirit . . . .learning to let the small things go.....
Elissa . . . .that takes a whole lot of intentionality... but i have done it... it's called "reframing" in psychology
RevRandy . . . .not being someone else, .... but trying to see oneself in a different perspective
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firespirit . . . .this is a cool exercise I have tried it..
RevRandy . . . .hello fang
fang . . . .hi
RevRandy . . . .and how did it go
Elissa . . . .fang you are VERY late!
firespirit . . . .amazing....
fang . . . . sorry i'm very late, had dogs to take care of
Elissa . . . .we'll straighten up the corner for you lol
firespirit . . . .brings a new understanding to many aspects of life..to walk in someone else's shoes...so to speak..
RevRandy . . . .to meet yourself walking down the road .....
Elissa . . . .yes, fs... good way to put it
russ . . . .that is a great way to thought rev
firespirit . . . .Yes.....to love everyone now matter where they come from..or who they are...
fang . . . .i try
fang . . . . but don't always accomplish this
firespirit . . . .not an easy task..
RevRandy . . . .and see everyone as potentially one of those with whom you will connect to move on in spiritual complexity
firespirit . . . .Yes...we are all one..
Elissa . . . .and see everything as potentially to learn from... and listen to
firespirit . . . .hard to love others especially when they are judging you..
RevRandy . . . .or at least moving in that direction
russ . . . .firespirit,,,send them love for their comments
Elissa . . . .it's very hard, fs... unless you remember that they are doing that because it's what they need to do and it has nothing to do with you
firespirit . . . .I do....send them love.....but not always easy...am working on this part of my journey..
fang . . . .but it sure feels personal at the time
RevRandy . . . .hey - if we didn’t have parts of our journey to work on, we would have moved on already
russ . . . .it is,,, not letting the negativity to continue
firespirit . . . .Yes..it can feel personal..especially if your inlaws...hehe..
RevRandy . . . .o, no, not inlaws!!!!!
Elissa . . . .it sure can, fang
fang . . . .i don't have inlaws
fang . . . . any more
firespirit . . . .or the outlaws....as I heard them called..
fang . . . . lol
fang . . . . i have ex inlaws
fang . . . . and we use to get along ok
Elissa . . . .well, folks, it's time for the rainbow song...
Elissa . . . .thank you all for sharing yourselves and your ponderings...
RevRandy . . . .yep - it is time for us to pack it in, one more time -- but thanks for making this a great evening
Elissa . . . .it's been wild and strange and fun and provocative!
firespirit . . . .Goodnight all I have to go anyway my girls are fighting..
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Elissa . . . . 11,6!Elissa rainbow.mid 6,11 :o)
* russ : Goodnight everyone!
Elissa . . . .nite fs... sweet dreams
Elissa . . . .nite russ
russ . . . .love and light
firespirit . . . .(((((((((room))))))))))
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Sugah . . . .night everyone
RevRandy . . . .night all
fang . . . . night
Elissa . . . .nite sugah
russ . . . .take care all
Elissa . . . .nite fang... love you!
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fang . . . .love you too
Sugah . . . .nite Elissa
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RevRandy . . . .nite
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Session Close: Sun Oct 15 23:08:15 2000